Meet Hasan.

[00:00:00] Victor: today we're here with hassan he's an operations manager for one of our clients he has over six years of experience doing project management and operations welcome to the show hasan thanks for having me great so why don't we start by uh you work for one of our clients can you just at a high level describe what the client does and then walk us over a typical day for you

[00:00:22] Hasan: Yeah, sure.

[00:00:23] Hasan: So basically my client right now is within the videography field.

[00:00:26] Hasan: So he does like commercials, ads, maybe even series for certain clients.

[00:00:31] Hasan: So he brought me in wanting like an operations manager to help him out, like with building the company from the ground up.

[00:00:36] Hasan: Because technically it's just him by himself and he has no team.

[00:00:40] Hasan: So he brought me in needing my help for like building everything from scratch.

[00:00:44] Hasan: There's no SOPs, no process, no nothing basically.

[00:00:47] Hasan: So he brought me in...

[00:00:48] Hasan: And then I guess the team within Frente told them that I'm the best fit for it.

[00:00:52] Hasan: And then when I joined, I realized that there's a lot of new things that are not really things that I've been equipped for, like have any relevant experience for.

[00:01:02] Hasan: But then again, I guess like the personality match.

[00:01:04] Hasan: the previous work experience and that made you know like the choice very clear to him so when i joined i'm basically doing everything from scratch because usually when i join those like operations there's like already a process in place like things that are already built for me to build upon but when i joined there was like nothing at all so i'm like okay so now i gotta build everything from scratch so that's like where the experience came in i'm like okay so this is these are all the things that i know we can build upon my things like this is my way of doing things and then we built on that and then

[00:01:33] Hasan: For the first time ever, I was, like, built, like, an entire operating system from scratch, which is cool because, like, this whole AI stuff going on nowadays.

[00:01:40] Hasan: What are you using?

[00:01:41] Hasan: Claude.

[00:01:42] Victor: You're using Claude?

[00:01:42] Hasan: Yeah, Claude Feralty.

[00:01:43] Hasan: So, yeah.

[00:01:44] Victor: Okay, so that's cool.

[00:01:46] Victor: And you mentioned this.

[00:01:47] Victor: So this is kind of like a content agency?

[00:01:49] Victor: More or less.

[00:01:50] Victor: Yeah, ads.

[00:01:50] Victor: And so can you be specific?

[00:01:52] Victor: Like, when you talk about the operations and the process, what are you building there?

[00:01:57] Victor: Yeah.

[00:01:58] Hasan: Basically like the SOPs, the contracts, templates that we're going to be using, how the team is going to flow.

[00:02:03] Hasan: Because just like what I mentioned, there is no team yet.

[00:02:05] Hasan: It's just me and him.

[00:02:06] Hasan: Okay.

[00:02:06] Hasan: So this is really quite early then.

[00:02:07] Hasan: This is very early.

[00:02:08] Hasan: I would say like I'm one of the first pioneers there.

[00:02:10] Hasan: Like it's just me and him.

[00:02:11] Hasan: So after I'm done building things for him, because again, like I've just been there for like...

[00:02:16] Hasan: about a month or so.

[00:02:17] Hasan: So things are very early on, like, in the very early stages.

[00:02:20] Hasan: But right now, I already built out, like, everything that he needs to actually start from a documentation standpoint.

[00:02:26] Hasan: So now it's more about, like, preparing for us to bring in, like, an entire team who's ready to go.

[00:02:30] Hasan: Like, the moment they join, they should be able to, like, you know, get to work right away because all the systems are in place.

[00:02:35] Hasan: So obviously, like, no company is just going to run on SOPs.

[00:02:37] Hasan: Like, there has to be, like, a process in place.

[00:02:40] Hasan: There has to be, like, a system that they can use and build upon or else things are just going to be in chaos, right?

[00:02:45] Hasan: does he have clients right now not at the moment so this is where he also needs my help which again is like me it's just kind of stretching me thin of like what i can do because he also needs me to help him with like the leads so he did offer me like ask me for help for like looking for clients through instagram uh if i can like actually reach out to you guys and see if you guys had like a lead person for the job so now is like the time when okay we're near the finish line i just need to wrap up a few things from my side before we can actually go live and like look for clients bring in the work and then you know

[00:03:13] Victor: So that's interesting.

[00:03:14] Victor: I'm actually a very, I'm a very low process person.

[00:03:17] Victor: Trent, I guess within our team, we have very few processes because I found, and I want to get your take on this.

[00:03:25] Victor: I found that as soon as you write down SOP, but then you kind of test that in the real world, it changes.

[00:03:31] Victor: Especially given the stage of the business that you mentioned that this guy is still pre-revenue, I guess.

[00:03:37] Hasan: Right.

[00:03:38] Victor: So how much of your process is like malleable to change?

[00:03:42] Victor: And do you think about that when you're designing the process?

[00:03:45] Hasan: I mean, to be honest with you, I'm not really like an SOP person, which is very ironic.

[00:03:48] Hasan: Like I'm not really the kind who would like stick to the book and like follow the rules, ask for, you know, what's being said.

[00:03:53] Hasan: So for me, I really like to keep things very simple.

[00:03:56] Hasan: I just want something that's very direct.

[00:03:58] Hasan: So even if I like draft like an SOP, as long as the essence of it is maintained, nothing else is going to matter to me.

[00:04:03] Hasan: So if I tell you like, hey, we got to get from A to Z and the process of getting there,

[00:04:08] Hasan: right still is relevant to what we need them to do then that's fine but as long as we get there and make sure that you know everything's still in place and that that's going to work for me because yeah again i don't really i'm not really a fan of like throwing lots of random things to people like hey you got to follow all of this because at the end of the day like people tend to just want to do what they want to do and just like be free they don't want to feel like you're micromanaging or whatever so you just give them something that's very direct and very simple to follow and that's basically it so

[00:04:33] Victor: So that's interesting.

[00:04:33] Victor: I found that a lot of people here say they had BPO experience or a very large enterprise experience.

[00:04:40] Victor: They're very used to that world where, I mean, there's the A to Z, but they also have the B, C, D, E, F, G. Like, you know, people really like to follow and adhere to process there.

[00:04:49] Victor: Where did you start developing this idea that really knowing Z, that's the only thing that matters and knowing where you're starting from?

[00:04:58] Victor: Well, that's always sort of ingrained in you.

[00:04:59] Hasan: I feel like that's like more of a me thing, because when you realize that work really isn't something that you're just going to have to do in a like super professional level, like it's not everything that nothing has to be very formal all the time.

[00:05:11] Hasan: So in my experience, like I've seen because prior to joining Trendly, I used to work as an account manager.

[00:05:18] Hasan: So with the other account managers, I noticed that everyone was like super professional, super uptight, super formal with their clients.

[00:05:24] Hasan: And that's how they maintain their relationships with them.

[00:05:26] Hasan: Meanwhile, for me, I just kept it like very friendly, very chill and low key.

[00:05:30] Hasan: And then that's when I realized like people loved me for it because it's just like a normal conversation that we have with anyone.

[00:05:35] Hasan: Like my conversations with clients were just like not even work related.

[00:05:39] Hasan: Like they'll tell me, hey, what are you doing this weekend?

[00:05:41] Hasan: Like, are we going to watch this movie?

[00:05:42] Hasan: Blah, blah, blah.

[00:05:43] Hasan: It was rarely about work, but they would reach out to me when something urgent about work had to be done.

[00:05:47] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:05:48] Hasan: So you kind of find this like balance between, okay, you got to get your things done.

[00:05:52] Hasan: You got to make them earn.

[00:05:53] Hasan: You just need to get their trust.

[00:05:55] Hasan: As long as a client trusts you, then they can make sure that you deliver on what you need to basically give them, right?

[00:06:01] Hasan: So this is like a clear distinction between basically being yourself and like finding that middle ground or like that common ground between being a professional and just being yourself.

[00:06:11] Hasan: Because there are like two people, a set of people who are just like very to the book is why you mentioned like from A to Z and they would only stick

[00:06:18] Hasan: throughout like ABCD all the way up until CEO.

[00:06:20] Hasan: And you'd only feel like, okay, this is more of a transactional thing.

[00:06:23] Hasan: It's just like a one and done thing.

[00:06:24] Hasan: So the client might just not remember you after like, okay, this guy just helped me get through it.

[00:06:28] Hasan: But then if you had no personality to show for it, then here's like another guy in like an ocean of people like just trying to help you with your business.

[00:06:36] Victor: Right.

[00:06:36] Victor: Well, certainly in account management to do that, you have to be a pretty competent person.

[00:06:41] Victor: You have to have maybe lived experience elsewhere and like a variety of exposures.

[00:06:46] Victor: And I'm sure you have just with your life in general, because, you know, I find it's a thing that's very hard to train.

[00:06:54] Victor: The traditional path is you would give somebody that A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And then they do it a thousand times.

[00:07:00] Victor: And then one day they wake up to go, wait a minute, I don't have to do H. Right.

[00:07:04] Victor: I don't have to do D. And then they start to kind of mature with it.

[00:07:08] Victor: But that's actually a very hard skill set to hire for.

[00:07:13] Victor: So what do you think it is about you where you're able to just be conversant and not succumb to imposter syndrome and all this fear when talking to the clients in the old company versus others that need to rely on a PowerPoint and they're going through all the slides?

[00:07:29] Victor: Like, what do you think it is about you?

[00:07:31] Victor: Yeah.

[00:07:32] Hasan: that gave you that uh outcome i mean to be honest it's kind of weird because for me i was always i always consider myself as in like an introvert so i'm not even like an outgoing person who would like reach out to people and stuff but then i don't know like as time passed by i'm like okay you know it's not that bad to open up to people and just like see life for what it is because like if i just you know if i'm just gonna be shy and miss all the opportunities in life and like people who pass by and that you never like converse with them

[00:07:58] Hasan: Even if it's like as simple as like, hey, I like your dog or whatever.

[00:08:00] Hasan: It's just like small things.

[00:08:01] Hasan: I just started to think, I just started to think like, okay, it's just small things that are not going to impact me negatively throughout the long run.

[00:08:08] Hasan: People are not going to remember me if I did something or said something.

[00:08:11] Hasan: So I'm like, okay, let me try this out one step at a time and then just see how things are going to go.

[00:08:16] Hasan: So maybe I opened up to like a first person like, okay, this didn't go as bad as I thought it was going to be.

[00:08:21] Hasan: And then so on and so forth.

[00:08:22] Hasan: And then I finally got comfortable with like...

[00:08:24] Hasan: okay, you know what, if I maybe get out of my shell a bit, it's not really going to have any negative impact on me, so might as well just give it a try.

[00:08:31] Hasan: And then, yeah, but again, the first and most important thing is really like to build, like, the trust that you have with someone.

[00:08:36] Hasan: Because I know you mentioned now, like, the imposter syndrome, like, how people would be scared of, like, maybe going out of their comfort zone.

[00:08:42] Hasan: And to be honest, there's no easy way to do that except doing it while you're scared and, like, while you feel that kind of feeling.

[00:08:47] Hasan: Because...

[00:08:48] Hasan: Honestly, with this client that I'm working with right now, ever since day one, I did have that feeling like, okay, I'm not the right person for this job.

[00:08:55] Hasan: Like I knew for a fact that I had that imposter syndrome.

[00:08:58] Hasan: I just knew it every day.

[00:08:59] Hasan: I'm like, I'm not this person.

[00:09:00] Hasan: I'm not this person.

[00:09:01] Hasan: Because again, like I always thought like this, I have no experience doing this.

[00:09:05] Hasan: Like is what I'm doing right now up to his standards or whatever.

[00:09:09] Hasan: And then whenever we had, like, our weekly touch base, like, yo, I'm super impressed with your work.

[00:09:12] Hasan: I love your work.

[00:09:13] Hasan: And even until recently, it's like, I'm super proud of your work.

[00:09:15] Hasan: I'm like, what?

[00:09:16] Hasan: Are you like... Yeah, so I'm like, okay, so what's the point of me, like, giving up now when I'm thinking, like, oh, my work isn't there.

[00:09:23] Hasan: But people are saying that it's there.

[00:09:25] Hasan: Like, he's super happy.

[00:09:26] Hasan: So where's this contradiction coming from?

[00:09:28] Hasan: But then that's when you realize, like, even if you're scared about doing something, you just got to do it while you're scared.

[00:09:32] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:09:32] Hasan: and then just see where it goes and what's the worst case scenario that's going to happen now you're going to get fired you're going to let you go okay and so on so what like life's going to move on with or without it anyways like if he fires me okay i can just well i'll just be unemployed for like a couple of weeks and just find another come but life will move on with or without without the job so something will eventually like it's never the worst case scenario people just tend to overthink things just like think the worst possible scenario but it never really actually is as bad as they think it's going to be

[00:09:59] Victor: Yeah, I love that.

[00:10:00] Victor: And to add to that, I would say sometimes we really are our own worst critics.

[00:10:06] Victor: So I make content for Instagram.

[00:10:08] Victor: And every day, I say this very openly, every day I wake up in the morning, the first thought that I have every morning is delete it all.

[00:10:15] Victor: Yeah.

[00:10:15] Victor: Just what are you doing?

[00:10:17] Victor: Just get rid of it all.

[00:10:19] Victor: But...

[00:10:19] Victor: Clearly, like millions of views and, you know, 50,000 followers don't think so.

[00:10:25] Victor: So when I look at my own face, just talking head videos, like just an infinite scroll of my own face, it's incredibly cringe.

[00:10:33] Victor: But then, you know, sometimes you just kind of stop.

[00:10:35] Victor: You should, like you said, what's the worst that can happen?

[00:10:37] Victor: So far, nothing has happened except for opportunity.

[00:10:40] Victor: maybe I should stop thinking about it so hard.

[00:10:42] Victor: Maybe I should just kind of lean into it and go with the flow.

[00:10:45] Victor: So that's a very good message for anybody who's on the fence about doing something.

[00:10:49] Victor: Because I do find a lot of people are very risk-averse.

[00:10:53] Hasan: I would say so, yeah.

[00:10:54] Victor: Yeah, just in general.

[00:10:55] Victor: But especially if I can also make the observation here in the Philippines, maybe because of the general kind of social welfare and lack of safety nets.

[00:11:04] Victor: But...

[00:11:05] Victor: People are really, you know, I just spoke to someone earlier, their preference towards a stable full-time job is very strong.

[00:11:13] Victor: Even if that job pays like a quarter of what a virtual job would pay.

[00:11:18] Victor: Do you know what I mean?

[00:11:18] Victor: They want that certainty.

[00:11:19] Victor: They want that security.

[00:11:21] Victor: Do you disagree with that?

[00:11:22] Victor: Do you see that or no?

[00:11:23] Hasan: I mean, I'm a risk taker.

[00:11:24] Hasan: So that's why I said, I think I've gave that impression ever since I joined.

[00:11:28] Hasan: I don't really mind what happens and what doesn't.

[00:11:31] Hasan: Because again, if something's out of my control, I'm not really going to sweat about it too much.

[00:11:35] Hasan: I can just control what's in my hand.

[00:11:36] Hasan: If I do my best and I know that it's not going to be enough, then that's not on me anymore.

[00:11:39] Hasan: It's not under my control.

[00:11:40] Hasan: I know that I'm giving my best every single day.

[00:11:42] Hasan: So I'm like, okay.

[00:11:44] Hasan: But the thing is, people here tend to want that security aspect because they don't want to take that risk of like, okay, what if I try to venture into something else that I'm not comfortable with, even though it could be more beneficial for them.

[00:11:56] Hasan: But it's like unknown territory for them.

[00:11:57] Hasan: Like it's not something that they're comfortable with.

[00:11:59] Hasan: So you would probably stick to what you're familiar with.

[00:12:02] Hasan: Another thing is that, like, people give themselves the value that they perceive is, you know, basically fair for them.

[00:12:08] Hasan: Because if you think about it, lots of people, I mean, for me, at least personally, I would, like, look around, like, okay, how does this person accepting a salary of X, Y, for example, versus, like, how does that make sense in today's economy, right?

[00:12:21] Hasan: And then, like, I'm like, how are people still saying those jobs are, like, very toxic so far away from their, like, family or whatever?

[00:12:27] Hasan: And then it just makes you think, like...

[00:12:29] Hasan: people just tend to accept what they really think is their value to them.

[00:12:33] Victor: Or maybe they're not even accepting at all.

[00:12:35] Victor: It's just sort of default.

[00:12:36] Hasan: Yeah, like just an autopilot.

[00:12:38] Hasan: Yeah, okay.

[00:12:39] Hasan: But yeah, I really do genuinely think that people just give themselves the value.

[00:12:42] Hasan: Like, okay, you know, I can just get this much or like I'm not worth like a higher amount or whatever.

[00:12:47] Hasan: So I'm just going to stick to this niche or like this field of mine and not really venture out of it.

[00:12:52] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:12:52] Hasan: But then again, there's also the aspect of like lack of opportunity and like people who actually pursue it.

[00:12:57] Hasan: So yeah, sometimes opportunity is presented.

[00:12:59] Hasan: Some people want to pursue it.

[00:13:00] Hasan: Some people just, you know, sit it out because they just think that they're not up for it.

[00:13:05] Hasan: But then if you never tried, then how are you going to know if you're up for it?

[00:13:08] Hasan: Because again, it was the worst that could happen, right?

[00:13:10] Victor: Let's go back to sort of your general story and where you grew up and things like that.

[00:13:15] Hasan: So basically, I was born here in the Philippines.

[00:13:17] Hasan: My mom is a Filipino, but my dad is Lebanese.

[00:13:19] Hasan: So when I was born here, we moved to where my dad was working, which is in Dubai.

[00:13:23] Hasan: We stayed there for a couple of years.

[00:13:24] Hasan: I think it was around seven years.

[00:13:25] Hasan: And then we moved to Lebanon, which is where he's originally from.

[00:13:29] Hasan: We stayed there for 13 years.

[00:13:30] Hasan: That's where I studied.

[00:13:31] Hasan: I stayed in high school and college before moving here.

[00:13:34] Hasan: So the reason why we moved here is I didn't see a future for me in Lebanon.

[00:13:38] Hasan: So we decided to give the Philippines a shot.

[00:13:40] Hasan: But then when I moved here, obviously a new environment, a new country.

[00:13:43] Hasan: You need to settle in.

[00:13:44] Hasan: How old were you at the time then?

[00:13:45] Hasan: I think I was like 19 or 18 when I first came here to the Philippines.

[00:13:48] Hasan: So I didn't know the language.

[00:13:50] Hasan: I didn't know the culture.

[00:13:51] Hasan: I didn't know anything about the country.

[00:13:53] Hasan: And I didn't know where it started at all.

[00:13:54] Hasan: So I thought moving to a different country, starting a new life would be easy.

[00:13:58] Hasan: Cause obviously I was like young and I had no idea how real life works basically.

[00:14:02] Hasan: So when I came here, I'm like, oh, okay.

[00:14:04] Hasan: Now I'm like really screwed.

[00:14:05] Hasan: Cause I didn't know where, where to go.

[00:14:07] Hasan: I didn't know what to do with my life, whatever.

[00:14:09] Hasan: So I stayed, I think the first year and a half, not doing anything, just staying with my mom and sister.

[00:14:15] Hasan: And then just nothing, just killing time, just exploring the Philippines.

[00:14:18] Hasan: And I realized like, okay, you know, I need to get a job.

[00:14:21] Hasan: But then I just didn't know where to start.

[00:14:22] Hasan: Like I don't know the language.

[00:14:24] Hasan: So it's going to be hard for me to find like a local job here.

[00:14:27] Hasan: And I was just walking by like a mall and then randomly saw like an ad for like a BPO company, ironically, which is like where everyone, I guess, starts.

[00:14:34] Hasan: So I was like, OK, you know, I have no experience.

[00:14:37] Hasan: Let me just try it out.

[00:14:38] Hasan: So I went with it and then I applied.

[00:14:40] Hasan: And it turns out like the main factor for like BPO companies is like how proficient you are in English and how fluent you are.

[00:14:46] Hasan: So I guess that was, like, the main selling factor for them.

[00:14:48] Hasan: So, yeah, I was, like, a default choice.

[00:14:51] Hasan: Hired on the spot.

[00:14:51] Hasan: Hired on the spot kind of situation, yeah.

[00:14:53] Hasan: Because for me, like, growing up abroad, my mom would always talk to us in English at home.

[00:14:58] Hasan: We grew up, like, movies, songs.

[00:15:00] Hasan: Like, everything around the house was just, like, English.

[00:15:02] Hasan: So...

[00:15:03] Hasan: um the main language in lebanon is like arabic the main language and then it's either french or english so for me yeah we chose english because my mom would always speak english but then french was like an alternate child that we could have went with but we stuck with english so uh when i moved here yeah that's like when the whole english proficiency came into play and like okay this guy is good let's hire him and then i stayed there for like

[00:15:27] Hasan: I think a year and a half or, like, almost two years.

[00:15:29] Hasan: And that's when I was like, okay, I don't want to keep doing this.

[00:15:31] Hasan: I hate the shift.

[00:15:32] Hasan: I hate going to work.

[00:15:33] Victor: Was it a graveyard shift?

[00:15:34] Victor: It was a graveyard shift.

[00:15:35] Hasan: And it was, like, my first time getting used to it.

[00:15:37] Hasan: Like, I'm used to staying up late, but never that late.

[00:15:39] Victor: And the phone doesn't stop ringing, right?

[00:15:41] Hasan: And the phone doesn't stop ringing, yeah.

[00:15:42] Hasan: But it was, like, a disaster.

[00:15:44] Hasan: It was just, like, pure chaos.

[00:15:45] Hasan: Like, just nonstop calls, like, people ranting.

[00:15:49] Hasan: Sometimes the calls would take, like, an hour plus.

[00:15:51] Hasan: And, like, it was insane.

[00:15:53] Hasan: It's not that I...

[00:15:54] Hasan: I hated it, but at the same time, I just didn't see myself staying there for such a long time.

[00:15:59] Hasan: I would just get burnt out super quick, super easy, and I usually get bored.

[00:16:02] Hasan: A year and a half is pretty long, though.

[00:16:04] Hasan: I would say so, yeah.

[00:16:05] Hasan: It didn't feel like it, because maybe I was goofing around.

[00:16:08] Hasan: Or too busy on the phone, that's why.

[00:16:09] Hasan: I mean, yeah, I guess.

[00:16:10] Hasan: But the thing is, I wasn't even busy on the phone for work-related stuff, because I guess that's where this whole thing with being friendly with other people started.

[00:16:17] Hasan: Because my calls would extend way beyond what it should have been, just because we're chit-chatting over random things.

[00:16:23] Hasan: I remember, like, a call extending for, like, 40 minutes plus because we were talking about, like, Marvel movies.

[00:16:28] Hasan: Like, their problem was fixed within, like, two or three minutes.

[00:16:31] Hasan: But then the conversation just kept going and going.

[00:16:33] Hasan: Like, from one topic led to another.

[00:16:34] Hasan: Like, my teammates could hear me.

[00:16:35] Hasan: And up until this day, like, hey, remember that guy that you talked to over the phone?

[00:16:39] Hasan: Up until now, they just bring that story.

[00:16:40] Victor: Isn't quality assurance on your ass for doing that because they want you to take the next call?

[00:16:45] Hasan: I mean, as long as the customer is happy and then like I can still bring down my average handle time to what it's supposed to.

[00:16:50] Hasan: So even if like one call went above what it should have been and you balance it out and like people are happy at the end of the day, then technically you're still doing your job.

[00:16:57] Hasan: So I don't think they matter.

[00:16:59] Hasan: Like no one's going to listen to like my 40 minute call about like...

[00:17:02] Hasan: okay, these guys are talking about like Marvel movies and whatever.

[00:17:04] Hasan: So I'm like, okay, just let it be.

[00:17:05] Hasan: And that's when I kind of found out like, okay, nobody really cares about what you do somewhat in between.

[00:17:10] Hasan: So you can just like maybe, you know, drift away from like the whole spiel that they gave.

[00:17:15] Hasan: Like, okay, you need to just be very transactional, very professional and whatever.

[00:17:18] Hasan: And that's like, okay, you know what?

[00:17:20] Hasan: It's not bad to like converse with people about like how their day is going, what they're up to and blah, blah, blah.

[00:17:24] Victor: So that was the moment.

[00:17:26] Victor: That was the moment you escaped the matrix.

[00:17:29] Hasan: Probably you could say that.

[00:17:30] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:17:30] Hasan: And then you took the pill.

[00:17:31] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:17:32] Hasan: And I'm like, okay, you know what?

[00:17:33] Hasan: I can just go elsewhere with like what I know.

[00:17:35] Hasan: It's funny, right?

[00:17:36] Hasan: Because you never see the world the same after that.

[00:17:38] Victor: You do.

[00:17:38] Victor: I mean, you start looking around.

[00:17:40] Victor: You start going, why are you guys behaving?

[00:17:42] Victor: Why is everybody doing this way?

[00:17:44] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:17:45] Hasan: And then like, even if you try to tell them on the spot, like, hey, you know what?

[00:17:47] Hasan: There's like an alternate route.

[00:17:48] Hasan: Nobody wants to buy.

[00:17:50] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:17:50] Hasan: Like nobody wants to buy that.

[00:17:51] Hasan: They're like, no, you're like insane.

[00:17:52] Hasan: Like, I don't want to risk that.

[00:17:53] Hasan: I don't want to do that.

[00:17:55] Hasan: For the fear of like, you know, not being called out or whatever.

[00:17:58] Victor: Okay.

[00:17:59] Victor: So you left the BPO.

[00:18:00] Victor: Right.

[00:18:01] Victor: For a year and a half.

[00:18:02] Victor: You said at this point you were 20.

[00:18:04] Victor: Around that age, yeah.

[00:18:06] Victor: Did you go... Like, when did school happen?

[00:18:08] Victor: Because you said you went to college, right?

[00:18:10] Hasan: Right.

[00:18:11] Hasan: In Lebanon, there's a different schooling system than here because, like, here...

[00:18:15] Hasan: I'm not really sure if it's, like, up until grade 9.

[00:18:18] Hasan: Like, there was, like, this gap here in the Philippines, like, between taking up until grade 12 where you can, like, skip straight to college.

[00:18:25] Hasan: So I think there was, like, a difference in the curriculum.

[00:18:27] Hasan: So you were done by the time you were 18?

[00:18:28] Hasan: I was...

[00:18:29] Hasan: done I actually had like one year left then that was like a story for as we progress kind of thing sure but yeah after that BPO experience I honestly didn't know what I wanted to do and I honestly don't know how you were awakened I was awakened yeah I just knew it had nothing to do with like the BPO anymore I just don't know what the next step was gonna be but then

[00:18:49] Hasan: I don't know how, but I got accepted for like a project management role, which is to me up until this day, like something that I'm so confused about because you don't normally jump from a customer service to just like doing calls into project management because there's no management.

[00:19:02] Hasan: Yeah, I was like, that's so weird that they actually took me on.

[00:19:05] Hasan: And there's no experience on the resume to like actually show for like the project management there.

[00:19:09] Hasan: So I'm like, okay, let me give it a shot because like it's a different niche.

[00:19:13] Hasan: So it could expand like other opportunities as well.

[00:19:15] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:19:16] Hasan: And it was more like a design kind of thing.

[00:19:18] Hasan: I had no idea, like no experience about how Photoshop works, how Adobe Premiere, like it had a lot of editing involved and I had no experience about like any of that.

[00:19:28] Hasan: So they brought us in like the first month of training.

[00:19:31] Hasan: They're like, okay, we're going to teach you guys the basics.

[00:19:33] Hasan: of design.

[00:19:35] Hasan: I've never, like, designed anything on, like, a digital, like, on a computer, on a tablet.

[00:19:38] Hasan: Was this an agency?

[00:19:39] Hasan: Was this, like... No, it was an actual company.

[00:19:41] Hasan: It was, like, an actual Philippine-based company.

[00:19:43] Hasan: And they were working, like, big brands, like, Nestle and, like... Yeah, like, they were just helping them with, like, their packaging designs and stuff.

[00:19:49] Hasan: So they brought me in, taught me about, like, how to mix colors, how to, like, actually design stuff and whatever.

[00:19:54] Hasan: And then when they put me into prod, I'm like, okay, I kind of see how this is going.

[00:19:58] Hasan: It's more of, like, communications between...

[00:20:00] Hasan: clients and like internal teams i'm like this is somewhat doable so i'm like all right i can do this like it's not that bad even if i had to like report to the office like maybe once a week that's also fine like it's not that big of a deal that was already mostly remote work for the most part yeah it was i think a couple of years

[00:20:18] Hasan: before the pandemic yeah so they were awakened there too way before yeah yeah okay i stayed there not for too long though i stayed there for like about six to eight months and the reason for this because i had friends who i met outside of work who told me hey you know what like there's this company who's hiring bilingual speakers and i speak arabic and then they were offering triple the salary of what i was getting and that was such a no-brainer i've never heard like an amount like that follow that could be given yeah so i'm like

[00:20:46] Hasan: I need to ditch this company, like, ASAP.

[00:20:48] Hasan: Because I was, like, FOMO-ing out.

[00:20:50] Hasan: Like, okay, they might get someone else or whatever.

[00:20:52] Hasan: Like, I just wanted to jump train, like, now.

[00:20:55] Hasan: So I put in my two weeks notice.

[00:20:57] Hasan: And then, yeah, I hoped for best with the interview.

[00:21:00] Hasan: And then 2012.

[00:21:00] Hasan: And I got hired.

[00:21:01] Hasan: And now I'm, like, a data analyst handling, like, Arabic and English stuff for, like, a social media platform.

[00:21:07] Hasan: Basically, that's when the jump of, like, data analysis came into play.

[00:21:10] Hasan: It was mostly due to, like, the bilingual stuff.

[00:21:12] Hasan: But then...

[00:21:13] Hasan: it also gave you like the new experience of, okay, now I'm doing data analysis.

[00:21:17] Hasan: So you jumped now between BPO, project management and data analysis, three completely unrelated fields, all within the span of like maybe five or six years.

[00:21:25] Hasan: I'm like, okay, what is going on?

[00:21:27] Hasan: Like, how am I surviving here?

[00:21:29] Hasan: But at the same time, I'm doing a good job at it.

[00:21:30] Hasan: So I'm like, okay, I don't necessarily need to have the experience.

[00:21:33] Hasan: I just need to know how to do something for me to do it properly.

[00:21:37] Hasan: So I stayed there for like two years or two and a half years up until a specific billionaire bought the company and then made like a lot of layoffs.

[00:21:46] Hasan: Elon Musk, shout out to you.

[00:21:48] Hasan: But yeah.

[00:21:49] Hasan: Oh, really?

[00:21:49] Hasan: Yeah, it was.

[00:21:50] Hasan: It was for Twitter mainly before it became X.

[00:21:52] Hasan: Okay.

[00:21:53] Hasan: So data analysis was mainly for Twitter.

[00:21:55] Hasan: And then when he came in, a lot of changes happened in the US and here.

[00:22:00] Hasan: Like a lot of people got laid off because he thought that he didn't need that much manpower.

[00:22:04] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:22:05] Hasan: I'm pretty sure he knows, but there's a lot of changes.

[00:22:07] Hasan: Yeah, he made all of them.

[00:22:08] Hasan: Yeah, there's a lot of changes on the platform itself, like in terms of the monetization and like the content and like the algorithms, everything has changed within Twitter.

[00:22:16] Hasan: So I'm like, okay, that's fine.

[00:22:18] Hasan: That was like two and a half years in.

[00:22:20] Victor: What year are we in now?

[00:22:22] Hasan: I would say that was like around 2023.

[00:22:24] Hasan: Okay, I think so.

[00:22:26] Hasan: Yeah, I think 2023, if I remember that correctly.

[00:22:29] Hasan: And then after that, I was laid off.

[00:22:33] Hasan: So I was like, okay, what do I do now?

[00:22:34] Hasan: But I wasn't like panicking.

[00:22:35] Hasan: I'm like, okay, it's fine.

[00:22:36] Hasan: Like, it's just like some time off.

[00:22:37] Hasan: Let me just like enjoy whatever peace of mind I can have for now.

[00:22:40] Hasan: So I'm like, okay, I'm just waiting it out.

[00:22:42] Hasan: Okay.

[00:22:42] Hasan: And then I had a friend from the first BPO company that we were close with.

[00:22:47] Hasan: He was like, hey, I'm working at this company now.

[00:22:49] Hasan: And like, I might be able to refer you.

[00:22:51] Hasan: I'm like, sure, why not?

[00:22:52] Hasan: If it works, it works.

[00:22:53] Hasan: If it doesn't, so be it, you know?

[00:22:55] Hasan: And he referred me and it actually worked out.

[00:22:57] Hasan: So the following job after data analysis was more of like client success management.

[00:23:02] Hasan: It was for a company called Legalsoft.

[00:23:03] Hasan: So it's like more of like a Legalsoft.

[00:23:05] Hasan: Yeah, it was like a legal company based in America.

[00:23:08] Hasan: And then when I got interviewed, it was mainly like Filipino interviewers.

[00:23:14] Hasan: But then there was like this one American guy who was also on the call.

[00:23:17] Hasan: And then I remember like I used to interview and then I got the feedback on a few days later.

[00:23:21] Hasan: Like, hey, you're in and you're going to start soon or whatever.

[00:23:24] Hasan: So I'm like, OK, sweet.

[00:23:25] Hasan: so i joined the team i was doing well and then like three months in that american guy was like hey i remember we interviewed like this one particular guy is he still around they're like yeah and then i was like i wanna like talk to him for something and then he reached out to me on the side and he's like okay hey you know what like you stuck out to me and then i want you to work for me directly as like a side thing for like a project management thing so

[00:23:50] Hasan: I went from client success management into a project management of an internal project that they had within the company.

[00:23:57] Hasan: So when he pulled me aside, he had like this random project that he wanted to like help the company with in terms of like security, because basically that role that I fulfilled as a CSM was mainly what you guys here in Trendly do.

[00:24:09] Hasan: So it's like you interview the VAs and then just pair them with the clients.

[00:24:13] Hasan: So I kind of had that background even before doing it.

[00:24:15] Hasan: Okay, so that's how it works from the back end.

[00:24:17] Hasan: Like, okay, clients come in, they're looking for a specific VA. My job here is to see like the resume.

[00:24:22] Hasan: It's like, okay, which resume looks good.

[00:24:23] Hasan: Let's interview this person.

[00:24:25] Hasan: When the time comes to be with a client, then let's present, you know, the candidate to them.

[00:24:29] Hasan: And then we basically help with the onboarding and just basically make sure that the client is happy with what the output of the VA is.

[00:24:36] Hasan: So that's what my job was for the first three months until I got pulled to the side for that side project.

[00:24:42] Hasan: And the side project was to make sure that no clients are poaching the VAs because lots of people nowadays want to work directly with the client and just cut on the agency altogether.

[00:24:51] Hasan: So we were like looking into the possibility of like how we can find those loopholes to make sure that doesn't happen.

[00:24:58] Hasan: So I'm like, okay.

[00:24:59] Hasan: What's the project?

[00:25:00] Hasan: He gave me the scope of it, what we need to do, and whatever.

[00:25:03] Victor: Let's pause there because that's really relevant to my space.

[00:25:06] Victor: So what do you think about that?

[00:25:07] Victor: And I just want your honest take.

[00:25:10] Victor: The existence of agencies and then going direct, poaching.

[00:25:16] Victor: Any thoughts come to mind?

[00:25:18] Hasan: I would say it's not really good for the business, but at the same time, there are very specific cases.

[00:25:25] Hasan: If I remember this correctly, I do remember seeing the contract that you do not completely close that door for a VA, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:25:32] Hasan: I think there was something within the contract that says like, if you ever feel like you're headed down that route, let us know and we'll facilitate that move for you.

[00:25:40] Hasan: You can grab me from, but I do remember seeing that.

[00:25:41] Hasan: Well, or something along those lines, at least.

[00:25:44] Victor: Well, the reason I actually don't know, maybe we do, I think, because the spirit, again, I'm the guy in my company that says Z.

[00:25:52] Hasan: Right.

[00:25:53] Victor: Right.

[00:25:53] Victor: That's, so I'm very first principles based.

[00:25:56] Victor: Just like, what do we care about?

[00:25:58] Victor: What's our value system?

[00:26:00] Victor: And then however we get there, there's different roles you can take.

[00:26:02] Hasan: Right.

[00:26:03] Victor: We've had this happen to us.

[00:26:04] Victor: Yeah.

[00:26:05] Victor: Yeah, of course.

[00:26:06] Victor: I mean, I feel like it's such a common phenomenon to add to agencies.

[00:26:09] Victor: But what I really believe is, like, you can't really enforce against it.

[00:26:15] Victor: I mean, these are human beings.

[00:26:17] Victor: Right.

[00:26:18] Victor: Like, what are you going to do?

[00:26:19] Victor: Just kind of chain them up virtually?

[00:26:22] Victor: You can't.

[00:26:22] Victor: And I don't believe in fear tactics as well.

[00:26:26] Victor: We've gotten burned many times, but even then, I don't believe in fear tactics because it just...

[00:26:32] Victor: Doesn't feel like how I want to operate in the world.

[00:26:35] Victor: Like I don't want to have to make money in revenue because people are coerced into the reality as they are.

[00:26:42] Victor: However, there are a lot of agencies in this space that I would say really overcharge.

[00:26:49] Victor: So they pay the VA's.

[00:26:52] Victor: much less than 50%.

[00:26:54] Victor: And then they take a very fat margin from the client.

[00:26:57] Victor: Right.

[00:26:57] Victor: Sometimes they don't offer healthcare.

[00:26:59] Victor: Sometimes they don't offer payroll.

[00:27:00] Victor: So of course, and they don't really disclose the prices to the client.

[00:27:03] Victor: So when the client finds out that whatever they're paying, only like a small fraction goes to the staff.

[00:27:10] Victor: it creates problems on that side.

[00:27:12] Victor: Right.

[00:27:12] Victor: We've, of course, had VAs that go to clients and sometimes say, hey, why don't you just hire me directly, bro?

[00:27:18] Victor: Yeah.

[00:27:18] Victor: But sometimes, you know, that's unfounded because, you know, business relationships are more complex than just the transactions.

[00:27:25] Victor: So sometimes they ask, but they don't realize, like, that business, we actually help them with something else.

[00:27:31] Victor: Yeah.

[00:27:32] Victor: outside where they're like my college buddy do you know what i mean so yeah i think what we try to tell people is even businesses like we've had businesses that say hey this person is really good but and you've kind of opened our our eyes to outsourcing and building global teams

[00:27:51] Victor: but we don't want to go through you forever because now I want to build my own team.

[00:27:54] Victor: And frankly, we just say to that, like, okay, let's sit down and let's talk about it.

[00:27:58] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:27:58] Victor: Let's talk about what makes sense because what are you going to do?

[00:28:00] Victor: You can't, you can't.

[00:28:01] Victor: You can't really like force them to stay.

[00:28:02] Victor: No, you can't.

[00:28:03] Victor: I don't think that's how you should do business.

[00:28:04] Victor: And so what that Z for us is like, and I don't want to sound like a saint, we're here to make money.

[00:28:10] Hasan: Right.

[00:28:10] Victor: But one of the things I believe is like, if we can open the door for people to cross forward or collaborate, because you know, this whole industry, there's a lot of bad, there's no trust.

[00:28:19] Victor: People get burned a lot on both sides.

[00:28:22] Victor: Like VAs don't get paid and clients get ghosted.

[00:28:24] Victor: Like back and forth every single day.

[00:28:26] Victor: I don't know how many orders of magnitude instances happen every single day.

[00:28:30] Victor: So for us, it's like if we could get a Western company to be like, wow, hiring in the Philippines is awesome.

[00:28:38] Victor: And it works for us.

[00:28:40] Victor: And then we can have someone here going like, hey, I just bought a new house or a new car because of this work.

[00:28:46] Victor: And now I feel a little bit more secure and I can be with my family.

[00:28:50] Victor: For us, it's a win.

[00:28:52] Victor: And we hope that we can make money by creating that value.

[00:28:55] Victor: But can we make money from it forever?

[00:29:00] Victor: It's hard to say, right?

[00:29:00] Victor: So hopefully we're adding more value to our clients than just showing up one time.

[00:29:05] Victor: But it is a tricky space.

[00:29:07] Victor: It is a very tricky space.

[00:29:08] Victor: Yeah.

[00:29:09] Victor: I would say this, though.

[00:29:10] Victor: Sometimes this sounds like a plug, but sometimes what we find is on the VA side, again, I call them VAs.

[00:29:17] Victor: I hate that term.

[00:29:18] Victor: It doesn't even make sense to me.

[00:29:20] Victor: But sometimes the VAs, they'll try to go direct with the client.

[00:29:23] Hasan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:24] Victor: But they're burning a bigger bridge than they think.

[00:29:26] Victor: I would say do that if you're really de-risked with the client.

[00:29:31] Victor: If you guys know that you get along, this is a secure business and a big business.

[00:29:36] Victor: Because we've also had a lawyer client in Toronto, very established lawyer, not pay his VA for three months.

[00:29:44] Victor: So these things, albeit rare...

[00:29:47] Victor: They happen as well.

[00:29:48] Victor: And then the VA loses the protection.

[00:29:50] Victor: Right.

[00:29:51] Victor: Because also 90% of small businesses fail in the West.

[00:29:54] Victor: Yeah, for sure.

[00:29:55] Victor: So now the thing is like you could work with a client and then they let you go.

[00:30:00] Victor: And now you're just by yourself out in the job market.

[00:30:02] Victor: Right.

[00:30:03] Victor: versus, you know, say if you're paired up with us with anybody, then maybe they can help you find another one, right?

[00:30:10] Hasan: Yeah, I mean, a lot of things can go wrong if you do that.

[00:30:12] Hasan: Not just that side of things, because, yeah, just like what you mentioned, they could not get paid for it.

[00:30:17] Hasan: The company might get shut down.

[00:30:19] Hasan: The problem with that is it poses the risk of clients giving you more than what you have initially signed up for, right?

[00:30:25] Hasan: Like, for example, I was under translated and I go to this client and then out of nowhere, it's like, okay, I need you to do more things that were outside of the scope of what I hired you to do.

[00:30:34] Hasan: I can't probably, like, even if I said no, it's like, no, but you have to do it.

[00:30:37] Hasan: You're working directly for me or whatever, right?

[00:30:38] Victor: Yeah, well, I'm not paying you.

[00:30:40] Victor: Right, right.

[00:30:40] Hasan: I can just go, like, hey, you know what, guys?

[00:30:42] Hasan: Like, this client is giving me more than what we agreed on.

[00:30:44] Hasan: And then, like, I'm not getting paid or whatever.

[00:30:46] Hasan: So to your point, yeah, if you do that kind of thing, it does burn a bridge.

[00:30:50] Hasan: Because, like, I know if I did that, I'm like, it's going to be such an awkward conversation to have, like, oh, you know what, guys?

[00:30:54] Hasan: Sorry, I left you, but he let me go.

[00:30:57] Hasan: Can you help me find another job?

[00:30:59] Hasan: It's going to cause more problems than, you know, like...

[00:31:01] Victor: people think?

[00:31:02] Victor: Well, sometimes the bridges are okay to be burned.

[00:31:05] Victor: So I'm also somebody that believes that, like, you don't need 20 bridges in your life.

[00:31:09] Victor: You're just walking on one bridge at a time.

[00:31:11] Victor: So, like you said, when you have the job offer that pays three times as much.

[00:31:15] Victor: Yeah.

[00:31:15] Victor: But see, sometimes what happens, like, this is actually, I'm thinking about one incident in my head.

[00:31:19] Victor: the VA went to one of our clients and just like, hey, why don't you work with me directly, blah, blah, blah.

[00:31:26] Victor: And then, you know, you can pay me a bit more.

[00:31:28] Victor: You can save a little less.

[00:31:29] Victor: But the thing is, our spread is actually pretty severe.

[00:31:32] Victor: After the healthcare we pay and running our own business, it's not much.

[00:31:36] Victor: But anyways, you know what the client did?

[00:31:37] Victor: Why are them missing me?

[00:31:39] Victor: Because the client's like, I don't really want to work with anybody with this sort of level.

[00:31:43] Victor: Right.

[00:31:43] Victor: Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:44] Victor: For sure.

[00:31:45] Victor: You know, so again, from our standpoint, yeah, like,

[00:31:49] Victor: Sometimes we have clients that come to us and say, hey, this person is really good, but I feel like I'm being held hostage with you guys.

[00:31:55] Victor: And we just say, well, the Z is that that's not our intent.

[00:31:59] Victor: That was never our intent in the first place.

[00:32:01] Victor: You know, there are some companies here, I won't say names, but like in their employment agreement with the VAs, it's so predatory.

[00:32:12] Hasan: Like nonsense.

[00:32:13] Victor: Well, so my, you know, Marianne.

[00:32:16] Victor: Yeah.

[00:32:17] Victor: Yeah.

[00:32:17] Victor: So she worked for a specific company that starts with the letter C, but it's a VA agency.

[00:32:23] Victor: But in her contract, it said, after you work with us, and if you're let go or fired or you quit for any reason, you're not allowed to work with an American company.

[00:32:33] Victor: Okay.

[00:32:34] Victor: How?

[00:32:35] Victor: So exactly.

[00:32:36] Victor: It sounds so like, well.

[00:32:38] Victor: It's insane.

[00:32:38] Victor: I mean, any American company in general.

[00:32:40] Victor: Exactly.

[00:32:41] Victor: Not even for a competitor.

[00:32:42] Victor: Just like you're not allowed to.

[00:32:43] Victor: That's their way of saying you can't go direct.

[00:32:46] Victor: You can't do anything.

[00:32:48] Victor: And you know what they would do?

[00:32:50] Victor: They have people, QA people, I guess.

[00:32:53] Victor: All right.

[00:32:53] Victor: That monitor people's LinkedIn.

[00:32:55] Hasan: Really?

[00:32:55] Victor: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Victor: It's insane.

[00:32:57] Victor: So she would get messages.

[00:32:58] Victor: Yeah.

[00:32:59] Victor: Like saying, oh, we see that you're working here.

[00:33:01] Victor: Do you know that you're in breach of contract?

[00:33:03] Victor: I've never heard of something like that.

[00:33:05] Victor: That's crazy.

[00:33:06] Victor: Yeah, this company, you can ask her which company it is.

[00:33:08] Victor: We talked about it before.

[00:33:10] Victor: Because I think, and it's practices like that, that completely add to the mistrust.

[00:33:16] Victor: in this industry, right?

[00:33:17] Hasan: Right.

[00:33:18] Victor: But then at the same time, you have on the VA side, like people doing, you know, six jobs or six is maybe an exaggeration, but say three.

[00:33:25] Victor: We've had people on our own team that work for direct competitors.

[00:33:30] Hasan: Really?

[00:33:30] Victor: At like the same time.

[00:33:31] Victor: Yeah.

[00:33:31] Victor: And then like had a... You guys knew about it or like you just found out?

[00:33:34] Victor: We found out and it took a lot for other team members on our team to come clean with it.

[00:33:41] Victor: Oh, okay.

[00:33:41] Victor: Because I think there is a culture here where people don't want to start conflict, where they don't want to snitch.

[00:33:49] Hasan: I think the culture is more like they know for a fact that companies aren't really open to the idea of having multiple jobs because that would distract them or lower the quality of work that they deliver.

[00:33:59] Hasan: for other clients so if I'm working for you guys I wouldn't feel like very comfortable saying hey you know I have another job because you might think like oh he's probably busy with something else to underperform for us because of course I think that's like the main reason here it's not about like the conflict I don't think people here think okay hey if I'm working for these guys it's gonna cause a conflict somewhere else oh sorry no that's not what it meant it just meant like when when we had this happen to us

[00:34:21] Victor: members of our team oh you meant your particular scenario yeah they knew they knew but didn't say anything because nobody wants to be a snitch right and you know and so i think that makes hiring really tricky right because like i'm gonna be honest and say it like sometimes when we interview candidates you know the social economic class divide here is extremely wide right so you have people who are poor for generations

[00:34:45] Victor: And then you have people with wealth that you can't even understand.

[00:34:48] Victor: Like, I don't even understand.

[00:34:49] Victor: Yeah.

[00:34:49] Victor: You know, just within the same kind of five kilometer radius as anybody else.

[00:34:54] Victor: But when you interview people, that comes into play.

[00:34:58] Victor: Because this, I was at a CEO roundtable of outsourcing companies.

[00:35:03] Victor: And everyone's like, yeah, don't hire anybody from Ateneo, Lassell, or any of these top schools.

[00:35:07] Victor: Because they won't work.

[00:35:08] Victor: Yeah.

[00:35:09] Hasan: Okay.

[00:35:09] Victor: Because why would they work?

[00:35:10] Victor: Like they're there to.

[00:35:11] Hasan: That's an interesting take.

[00:35:12] Victor: Yeah.

[00:35:13] Victor: Run the family's business.

[00:35:14] Victor: And they're really, and it's like the economics, you know, it makes sense because why, why would they work?

[00:35:22] Victor: Because their family is already wealthy.

[00:35:24] Victor: You know, some of these, the schools, you know, like Brent and British, just like 20,000 US a year.

[00:35:29] Victor: You know, like I couldn't afford that in Canada.

[00:35:32] Victor: Yeah.

[00:35:32] Victor: So the wealth level is really big, but then they want a job because, you know, they still need to build their CVs.

[00:35:38] Victor: But now once they hit these companies, they kind of expect that they're already management.

[00:35:43] Victor: So this is, again, being discussed with some of the largest outsourcing companies here that process many applicants.

[00:35:51] Victor: You go to the other end of that and you really want to help candidates punch through the middle class.

[00:35:58] Victor: Right.

[00:35:58] Victor: Like they're really talented, really smart.

[00:36:01] Victor: But I always call VA jobs a middle class luxury because a lot of them...

[00:36:08] Victor: they will work multiple jobs because they're going to do what's best in their own interests.

[00:36:14] Hasan: Exactly.

[00:36:14] Hasan: That's what everyone will eventually do.

[00:36:16] Hasan: Like as long as there's money on the table and money there for the taking, if it's doable, then why not?

[00:36:21] Hasan: Yes.

[00:36:22] Victor: So then what happens is like the best VAs we find are like people who, I'm not going to say, you know, they're kind of in the middle where they're like, look, let's be honest, working three jobs at the same time is not fun.

[00:36:33] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:33] Victor: pretending that you don't have another client and, you know, one client goes, are you free for a call?

[00:36:39] Victor: Oh, just wait, file break.

[00:36:41] Victor: I got to, you know, and then you take like, you know, dealing with three different Slack accounts.

[00:36:45] Victor: I'm sure it's like a very stressful experience to live in the shadows and work in the shadows like that.

[00:36:51] Victor: But of course you get paid.

[00:36:53] Victor: Exactly.

[00:36:53] Victor: Yeah.

[00:36:54] Victor: But so you, so the best candidates are the people who are like, I don't really need that.

[00:36:59] Victor: I don't need that stress in my life.

[00:37:01] Victor: It means they sort of have the financial privilege of saying like for one reason or another, just one and maybe a side hustle is okay.

[00:37:09] Victor: Do you know what I mean?

[00:37:10] Victor: But the thing is when you interview, you can't really openly discriminate against that or figure that out, right?

[00:37:17] Victor: You can't be like, hey, what's your family's income?

[00:37:20] Victor: Where do you live?

[00:37:21] Victor: Show me your room, right?

[00:37:23] Victor: Like what computer are you using?

[00:37:25] Victor: So I just find it's sort of that thing.

[00:37:28] Victor: And we've had clients that hire on Upwork.

[00:37:31] Victor: And then they found out that the person that they hired on Upwork actually outsourced it to somebody else.

[00:37:36] Victor: And then that person actually outsourced it to somebody else.

[00:37:39] Victor: Because, like you said, if there's money to be made, if there's margin, then the world will... We'll always, like, move forward with it.

[00:37:45] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:37:45] Hasan: I mean, to be honest, I do know people who actually do that.

[00:37:47] Hasan: Like, I know someone who's working with a client.

[00:37:50] Hasan: But then she has, like, four other clients.

[00:37:52] Hasan: And she just gave them, like, other VAs.

[00:37:54] Hasan: And she just gets a cut out of it.

[00:37:55] Hasan: So...

[00:37:55] Hasan: It's a lot to manage, though.

[00:37:56] Hasan: Like, it is very stressful.

[00:37:58] Hasan: Like, we're dealing with more than one job all at the same time.

[00:38:00] Hasan: Like, especially if the hours overlap.

[00:38:01] Hasan: And just like what you said, like, imagine, like, a client wants to get on a call.

[00:38:04] Hasan: You're like, I cannot do this because, like, you have another call elsewhere.

[00:38:08] Victor: Yeah.

[00:38:09] Victor: But I understand, right?

[00:38:10] Victor: Like, you know, again, we've had this happen to us.

[00:38:12] Victor: Like, people, we, I like to objectively think we treat it very well.

[00:38:16] Victor: But they were just offering, like, operating in a completely different context than we can understand.

[00:38:20] Victor: Like, maybe they need it.

[00:38:22] Victor: Maybe a family member is in debt.

[00:38:23] Hasan: I mean, to be honest, to each their own.

[00:38:26] Hasan: We're not specifically saying it's a bad thing.

[00:38:29] Hasan: We're not judging it.

[00:38:30] Hasan: Not at all.

[00:38:31] Hasan: The thing is, everyone has their own circumstances.

[00:38:33] Hasan: Everyone has their own reason to do what they do.

[00:38:35] Hasan: It's just that it's more on thinking, okay, what's the best for my peace of mind?

[00:38:40] Hasan: At the end of the day, you'll reach a point where you realize money really isn't everything.

[00:38:43] Hasan: Like, I know this sounds super cliche.

[00:38:45] Hasan: People say like, oh, money can buy you habits.

[00:38:46] Hasan: I'd rather cry in a Ferrari than like being like crying in my bathroom or whatever.

[00:38:51] Hasan: But if you think about it, like even if you had like all the money in the world, right?

[00:38:54] Hasan: Like you bought your dream house, you bought your dream car, you already like helped out your family.

[00:38:58] Hasan: You did everything.

[00:38:58] Hasan: You traveled the world.

[00:39:00] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:39:00] Hasan: And at some point you will reach a point like, okay, and now what?

[00:39:04] Hasan: Just try to think about it.

[00:39:05] Hasan: Like, okay, I gave you like billions of dollars.

[00:39:07] Hasan: You bought your dream home.

[00:39:08] Hasan: You bought your dream car.

[00:39:09] Hasan: You traveled the world.

[00:39:10] Hasan: You did everything you wanted to do.

[00:39:11] Hasan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:12] Hasan: And then you reach a point, like, okay, I did everything.

[00:39:14] Hasan: I own everything.

[00:39:15] Hasan: Now what?

[00:39:16] Hasan: So when you reach that point, like, now what?

[00:39:18] Hasan: You're like, there has to be, like, this sense of purpose, right?

[00:39:21] Hasan: So even if, let's say, you retard from work and you have all the money in the world, right?

[00:39:25] Hasan: Like, okay, I have nothing to do now.

[00:39:27] Hasan: So what's your purpose?

[00:39:28] Hasan: What are you going to serve?

[00:39:29] Hasan: What are you living for the next day?

[00:39:31] Hasan: I read everything.

[00:39:31] Hasan: I went everywhere.

[00:39:32] Hasan: There's nowhere else to go.

[00:39:34] Hasan: I've done everything.

[00:39:35] Hasan: All the activities I wanted to do.

[00:39:36] Hasan: And then what?

[00:39:37] Hasan: Like, if you're not living for a purpose...

[00:39:39] Hasan: then you're not, like, there's no real reason for you to just, like, keep going, like, in a sense of, like, happy, like, this pursuit of happiness is just going to keep going and going until you finally feel like, okay, or you just think I need to do something that resonates with me, like, your real calling, what are you out there to do?

[00:39:56] Hasan: So, in many people's cases, they're doing, like, jobs that they are not necessarily happy with.

[00:40:01] Hasan: You're just doing it for the sake of getting money.

[00:40:03] Hasan: It is money, but then...

[00:40:05] Hasan: If you told them, like, hey, I couldn't hire you tomorrow, would you still be working for me?

[00:40:07] Hasan: What are the odds of, like, the people saying, yeah, I'll be at work tomorrow, sharp at, like, 9 a.m. to work for you if I have everything that I need, right?

[00:40:14] Hasan: I feel like everyone is, like, working to fulfill, like, their personal goals.

[00:40:17] Hasan: So whatever you do with, like, through three jobs, four jobs or whatever, that's really up to them.

[00:40:21] Hasan: But the main thing is...

[00:40:23] Hasan: is that pursuit and is that like super work ethic that you have worth it if it comes in the expense of like your peace of mind and your sanity and like your actual mental health and like your your love for life like are you still gonna want to go out the next day do you still have the time and energy to meet up with friends to go out on that adventure that you've been postponing so there's always like a compromise so it's really like a matter of like what are your personal goals what do you think is best for you what's your definition of success because

[00:40:50] Hasan: For someone, definition of success could be like, okay, I need to be a millionaire by the age of like 40 or 30 or whatever.

[00:40:55] Hasan: Someone else's could be like, okay, I don't mind how much I earn.

[00:40:57] Hasan: I just want to be able to like do these small things that I always want to.

[00:41:00] Hasan: It's maybe the freedom of time.

[00:41:02] Hasan: So different people have different definitions of success.

[00:41:05] Hasan: So people tend to do what they feel is best for them.

[00:41:08] Hasan: So if people want to earn more money, if it's on the expense of their mental health and like their, you know, time and well-being, then that's up to you.

[00:41:16] Hasan: You can't really change that or take that away from them because...

[00:41:18] Victor: There's an objective other rationale I give, like someone that was just sitting in this chair, I told them, you know, the problem with this space, with the moonlighting is people think they're, and sometimes you can't get ahead.

[00:41:30] Victor: Again, like if you get a job offer is three times as much, you should absolutely just abandon ship and go, right?

[00:41:35] Victor: But a lot of times people are just going wide.

[00:41:38] Victor: They're not going deep.

[00:41:39] Victor: So 10 years have passed.

[00:41:42] Victor: And they basically spend those 10 years being very stressed, hiding, hopping from jobs that paid a little bit higher, a little bit lower.

[00:41:49] Victor: But they can never stick.

[00:41:50] Victor: They never built any expertise.

[00:41:52] Victor: Critically, they never built any relationships.

[00:41:55] Victor: See, the thing is, if my business goes down tomorrow, I don't need to go out and start from zero because I have people I can call.

[00:42:04] Hasan: Right.

[00:42:04] Victor: And so in that sense, you know, you want your bridges.

[00:42:07] Victor: I just find that, yeah, like here, not here, just like in the outsourcing space, the mentality is how do I earn more now?

[00:42:14] Victor: Right.

[00:42:15] Victor: And I understand some of that comes from a necessity, scarcity mindset, survival instinct that I can't fully understand.

[00:42:22] Victor: But sometimes you got to, if you can, if you have a luxury to, you can look farther.

[00:42:25] Victor: Yeah.

[00:42:26] Victor: Right.

[00:42:26] Victor: Because what are you going to do in five years, 10 years?

[00:42:29] Victor: I know people like local born and raised that live in Rockwell, like power plant.

[00:42:35] Victor: Right.

[00:42:35] Victor: They make very well.

[00:42:36] Victor: And they like they have, you know, now businesses on the side, real estate or whatever.

[00:42:42] Victor: But the common theme I heard there is they just do one thing.

[00:42:45] Hasan: Which is?

[00:42:46] Victor: Well, they just focus on whatever their thing is.

[00:42:47] Hasan: Like they'll just dedicate everything to that.

[00:42:49] Hasan: They went deep.

[00:42:50] Hasan: OK.

[00:42:50] Victor: They went deep.

[00:42:51] Victor: Now, provided that you have to find the right horse.

[00:42:54] Hasan: Right.

[00:42:55] Victor: Because if you find, like say, you know, like I said, most small businesses fail.

[00:42:59] Victor: And right now you are working for a small business, right?

[00:43:03] Victor: So if this business doesn't fail, then you've just entered it in the ground floor, right?

[00:43:08] Victor: And it's a great buy low, sell high, right?

[00:43:10] Victor: But if the horse fails, then you're back to starting again.

[00:43:16] Victor: And actually the trick also, I like to say this, my own team is you have to be able to differentiate when the horse is sick and when it's dying.

[00:43:22] Victor: Right.

[00:43:23] Victor: Because when it's sick is sometimes when a lot of people jump ship, right?

[00:43:27] Victor: But they don't realize it's just sick.

[00:43:29] Victor: It's going to get back again.

[00:43:30] Victor: It's going to start running.

[00:43:30] Victor: Yeah.

[00:43:31] Victor: So there's these concepts with the people that I've met, you know, some people in McKinley, in Makati, like they have very like country managers, like very senior positions.

[00:43:40] Victor: Again, I'm not saying that's the end all be all in life, but they seem like they're pretty happy, right?

[00:43:44] Victor: Good, good balance, good teams.

[00:43:46] Victor: And they like what they do.

[00:43:47] Victor: They're passionate about winning.

[00:43:48] Victor: They all went very deep.

[00:43:51] Victor: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:52] Victor: But I'm also sure that they never really had to, because the family structure or something, worried about how to pay the electricity bill a week from now.

[00:44:03] Victor: So that's what I mean.

[00:44:03] Victor: This country is interesting because just the spectrum of advantages and disadvantages.

[00:44:09] Hasan: yeah it's very interesting because lots of people have like different stories to tell each one has their own like unique story to tell right and it's so hard for us to like put everyone under one umbrella and be like okay this is the general consensus of how we think things should be versus how they actually yeah absolutely a lot of people are really like putting in their you know like their very best to make sure that they can provide

[00:44:29] Hasan: Which is what, like, the Filipinos are really about.

[00:44:31] Hasan: Like, they are very hardworking people who really care about, like, their families.

[00:44:34] Hasan: The capla system.

[00:44:36] Hasan: Yeah.

[00:44:36] Hasan: I mean, we are fighting the system, to be honest with you.

[00:44:39] Hasan: It's not like we have, like, the best healthcare in the world.

[00:44:40] Hasan: It's like, you know, everything that we, for example, give out in taxes, right?

[00:44:44] Hasan: It's not really translated into our benefits.

[00:44:46] Hasan: It doesn't really, like...

[00:44:47] Hasan: If you look outside, for example, you won't see, like, we have the best...

[00:44:50] Hasan: train system like other countries do we don't have like the best health care for example like what people say here is that you're one sickness away from burning out your entire life savings right because if you if you're god forbid like sent to the hospital and then like the hospital comes i've heard you that yeah it really wiped out that there's no proper health care in place before the recall of family for generations you just have one bad hospital

[00:45:12] Hasan: Right, so that's insane.

[00:45:14] Hasan: Imagine working all these years for life savings, for example, or emergency funds, or anything at all, and then you have this one bad, unfortunate event, and then everything that you've built for years is just gone, and snap a finger, just like that.

[00:45:28] Victor: What do you think is the solution?

[00:45:29] Hasan: What do you think is the solution?

[00:45:31] Hasan: I mean, it's such a complicated question for...

[00:45:34] Hasan: for like an answer to come out of me.

[00:45:35] Hasan: But to be honest, it would need drastic change within the country itself, not really.

[00:45:41] Hasan: I mean, it could be from the government.

[00:45:43] Hasan: It could be from the people.

[00:45:44] Hasan: It's like you can't really say like, oh, the government needs to change.

[00:45:48] Hasan: But then the people are just like sitting at home.

[00:45:49] Hasan: It's not like you're saying, I wish I could be a millionaire and just like do nothing, right?

[00:45:53] Hasan: Like you need to take action.

[00:45:54] Hasan: I'm not saying this like, hey, go down to the streets and do whatever.

[00:45:57] Hasan: But then again, if you want change, you can't just pray for change and then just expect change to happen.

[00:46:03] Hasan: Something needs to happen that you're actually putting yourself out there like, okay, if all of us as a nation, as a country, we're all sick and tired of how we're being treated and how the country's status is at the moment.

[00:46:15] Hasan: then we can't just all say, oh, we wish it changes or whatever.

[00:46:18] Hasan: We need to be the change that we want to see, right?

[00:46:20] Hasan: Like we need to...

[00:46:21] Hasan: I mean, I've seen it in other countries and it's worked.

[00:46:24] Hasan: I'm not saying it's probably going to work here, but I don't know which one was it.

[00:46:28] Hasan: I'm not sure if it was Nepal, if I remember it correctly, but there was like a...

[00:46:31] Hasan: Like, they overthrew their government, I guess.

[00:46:33] Hasan: Like, there were, like, riots down the streets.

[00:46:35] Hasan: Like, chaos was, like, everywhere.

[00:46:37] Hasan: But if you go down, like, marching, like, friendly with, like, some signs, like, we demand change or whatever, like, nothing is going to happen, right?

[00:46:43] Hasan: No one is going to feel like, oh, we feel the pressure of, like, the people.

[00:46:46] Hasan: It's like, okay, like, they're so upset.

[00:46:48] Hasan: Like, they need something.

[00:46:49] Hasan: I mean, they're not...

[00:46:50] Victor: They're not angry enough.

[00:46:51] Victor: Yeah, but that's also a feature of the culture, right?

[00:46:54] Victor: There's the Bahagana and the sort of, like...

[00:46:56] Hasan: I mean, the Filipino people are one of the nicest people out there.

[00:47:00] Hasan: They're not going to go crazy on you or whatever.

[00:47:04] Hasan: Because people here, I'm not sure if you've heard, but we have someone who visits from outside the Philippines.

[00:47:09] Hasan: They always treat them with the utmost respect, which also goes out to the VA.

[00:47:13] Hasan: The reason why people probably don't express themselves as much is because they want to maintain this very professional relationship where they see the client or whatever as...

[00:47:22] Hasan: you know, someone superior to them instead of seeing them like as a business partner, like someone that they work with, not for.

[00:47:28] Hasan: So that's like the mentality that people always have in mind.

[00:47:30] Hasan: Like, oh, I'm working for this guy, not with this guy.

[00:47:34] Hasan: So if you always go with that mentality, someone is above me, you're always going to have that disconnect.

[00:47:39] Hasan: Like, okay, he's there and I'm down here.

[00:47:42] Hasan: You can't really see eye to eye.

[00:47:43] Hasan: So that's like the thing.

[00:47:45] Hasan: Even like when I met with my client...

[00:47:47] Hasan: I told him, I'm not going to be your yes, man.

[00:47:48] Hasan: Like, you're not hiring me and you're going to get, like, if you tell me to do something, I'm going to do it.

[00:47:52] Hasan: I told him straight out, like, if I think that you're doing or, like, you're coming up with a decision that's strong for business, I'm going to tell you straight up, like, hey, I think this is a bad decision.

[00:48:00] Hasan: But at the end of the day, it will be your decision to make.

[00:48:03] Hasan: But I'm not going to be a yes, man.

[00:48:04] Hasan: Like, that's a great idea.

[00:48:05] Hasan: You should 100% do that.

[00:48:06] Hasan: Because to the client before him...

[00:48:09] Hasan: it was very clear that his company is gonna completely tank it was very obvious like from day one that i joined like i'm like how are these guys functioning these guys suck and they're not gonna work out i even told like that the people within trend like hey just to flag to you guys like these guys don't look like they're doing well and i don't think they're gonna last for like half of the year like i think

[00:48:28] Hasan: Q3, they're going to be out of business.

[00:48:29] Hasan: I'm like, all right, that's fine.

[00:48:30] Hasan: Let's just ride it out and see what's going to happen.

[00:48:32] Hasan: Lo and behold, I think it was March or April.

[00:48:35] Hasan: The company just tanked.

[00:48:36] Hasan: He couldn't even pay off his employees.

[00:48:38] Hasan: It just completely went bad.

[00:48:42] Hasan: These are things that you can observe.

[00:48:44] Hasan: You can actually flag, but it's up to the person that you're telling it to if they want to listen to you or not.

[00:48:48] Hasan: It's up to them.

[00:48:49] Hasan: I can't tell you, hey, you need to do this to your company.

[00:48:52] Hasan: Do it right now.

[00:48:53] Hasan: I can just tell you, I did my part.

[00:48:55] Hasan: I let you know, hey, you have these gaps.

[00:48:57] Hasan: You have these holes.

[00:48:58] Hasan: These are costing you a lot of money.

[00:49:00] Hasan: You need to do something about it.

[00:49:01] Hasan: Now, whether you do something about it or not, that's completely up to you.

[00:49:04] Hasan: I already did my part.

[00:49:05] Hasan: There's nothing more I can do.

[00:49:06] Hasan: Right, of course.

[00:49:06] Victor: And I think as Westerners, we respect that because we don't want yes-men.

[00:49:10] Victor: Yeah.

[00:49:11] Victor: So now, maybe I've asked my own question here.

[00:49:13] Victor: Earlier, you said that you lived years in Lebanon.

[00:49:17] Victor: And then when you were finishing school, you didn't see the future there by itself.

[00:49:22] Victor: And then you came here.

[00:49:23] Victor: So now that, probably around the same amount of time, right?

[00:49:25] Victor: Six, seven years.

[00:49:26] Victor: Hair loss, yeah.

[00:49:26] Victor: Yeah.

[00:49:27] Victor: How do you feel about that decision?

[00:49:29] Victor: How do you feel about yourself in the Philippines kind of moving forward?

[00:49:33] Hasan: I mean, context matters.

[00:49:34] Hasan: So it's not like when I left Lebanon, I left it in the best conditions ever.

[00:49:38] Hasan: Because after I left, the economy there crashed.

[00:49:43] Hasan: It crashed so bad.

[00:49:45] Hasan: People lost millions of money that they had in their banks.

[00:49:49] Hasan: People lost their jobs.

[00:49:50] Hasan: It was one, the economical crash.

[00:49:52] Hasan: And then two, there was this huge explosion that happened in Beirut.

[00:49:56] Hasan: And then there was COVID.

[00:49:58] Hasan: And then there was the war.

[00:49:59] Hasan: So altogether, after I left, I just, like, went to hell, basically.

[00:50:03] Hasan: What happened in London?

[00:50:04] Hasan: It's very unfortunate.

[00:50:05] Hasan: But, yeah, it was, like, very bad things one year after another.

[00:50:09] Hasan: And when I came here, I'm not saying I'm living, like, the best life, but I am living a good life that I am happy with.

[00:50:15] Hasan: But I don't necessarily see myself living here for the long-term, like, future, you know?

[00:50:19] Hasan: Because I'm like, okay.

[00:50:20] Hasan: For starters, like, I'm not happy with, like, the infrastructure that the country has.

[00:50:26] Hasan: Because, like, if I want to go from one place to another, it's such a hassle.

[00:50:30] Hasan: It's such a, like... To some point you were late today.

[00:50:32] Hasan: I mean, I was late, but for the wrong reasons.

[00:50:34] Hasan: Yeah, but that's, like, another point.

[00:50:35] Hasan: But, yeah, like, it's the traffic.

[00:50:37] Hasan: It's, like, the benefits that we have.

[00:50:39] Hasan: There's just something about living here that doesn't make you feel, like, unhappy.

[00:50:42] Hasan: Or, like, you're just, like, living...

[00:50:44] Hasan: to your like fullest potential in the sense of like you have the time and like everything that you need for yourself you know because if you're one of the main things that I hate about the Philippines like how insanely hot it is like you can just go out and enjoy like some time off like let's say 12 p.m 1 p.m 2 p.m right

[00:51:02] Hasan: all year long, it's, like, super hot, super humid, but if you go, like, elsewhere, and, like, you experience, like, four seasons, you can feel, like, okay, and, like, during fall, during winter, like, you can just, like, go out, like, your body needs that, right, like, for me, I'm used to that, like, I used to come, you know, like, remember, we had, like, four seasons, like, winter, spring, fall, summer, so, like, every once in a while, like, you would feel, like, this needed change that your body needs, like, you can't just be, like, sweating and, like, feeling hot all year long, and then, like, you want to go out, but you can't, because, like, oh, it's too hot outside, like, I can't go anywhere, like, it's just crazy, and then,

[00:51:32] Hasan: Yeah, it's just like there's a better life outside of here that people always try to look for.

[00:51:39] Hasan: I know that people come here to retire.

[00:51:40] Hasan: Yeah, maybe if you have enough money to retire, you should probably stay here because you have nothing else to do, right?

[00:51:46] Hasan: But if you want to build a life further than what you already have, then maybe a step outside the Philippines would be a good one because...

[00:51:54] Hasan: Pay is definitely going to be higher.

[00:51:55] Hasan: Benefits are definitely better.

[00:51:57] Hasan: As a country, you just have more things to do compared to here.

[00:52:01] Hasan: I'm pretty sure you've traveled to a lot of places.

[00:52:03] Hasan: You live in Canada, right?

[00:52:05] Hasan: I know you just recently moved here, but even if you try to compare, there are so many things in Canada that...

[00:52:10] Hasan: you can't really, like, do here.

[00:52:11] Hasan: Just, like, basic human things.

[00:52:13] Hasan: Like, if you want to, again, like, just go out for a walk with your family, I don't think you can do it at, like, 1 p.m., 2 p.m. here.

[00:52:17] Hasan: Where would you go?

[00:52:18] Hasan: Like, the whole... Have you seen the streets?

[00:52:20] Hasan: Like, it's just, like, insane.

[00:52:21] Victor: Like, there... Yeah, you have to live in certain pockets here, Oasis, again, that... Yeah.

[00:52:28] Victor: disparity gap, right?

[00:52:30] Victor: You know, your neighborhood, your zip code.

[00:52:31] Victor: It makes me think about how those security guards and traffic controllers were just, you know, the full clothes out there.

[00:52:37] Victor: Just a quick question here and then wrap up, but where do you want to go?

[00:52:40] Hasan: That's the thing.

[00:52:41] Hasan: Like, you just got to travel.

[00:52:42] Hasan: You just got to find where you're going to be happy.

[00:52:44] Hasan: Like, I've been traveling way before Translate and even during Translate, I've been traveling.

[00:52:48] Hasan: So for me, there's like a bunch of new countries that I want to explore first and then maybe I'll decide then.

[00:52:53] Victor: I didn't go as a digital nomad in the beginning.

[00:52:56] Hasan: It could be, yeah.

[00:52:57] Hasan: I mean, if it's possible, then yeah, why not?

[00:52:59] Hasan: Because I've been to most countries here in Southeast Asia.

[00:53:02] Hasan: I've been to a couple of countries in the Middle East.

[00:53:04] Hasan: So probably the goal for next year is to explore a bit of Europe and see what life is like there.

[00:53:09] Victor: You know, Eastern Europe is quite nice because it's not that inflated.

[00:53:14] Victor: I don't know about the war situation right now.

[00:53:15] Victor: Which countries?

[00:53:17] Victor: I've been to Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

[00:53:19] Victor: So I recommend... Yeah, because nobody really thinks about it.

[00:53:22] Victor: Yeah, yeah.

[00:53:22] Victor: They're just focused on the main... Everyone's like, go to France, go to Paris.

[00:53:25] Victor: Paris is a dump.

[00:53:26] Victor: Okay, I'm going to say it.

[00:53:27] Victor: But yeah, if you go to those countries, it's very...

[00:53:30] Victor: reasonable as well i do believe you get four seasons closer to the colder side but it's nice and it's very clean the infrastructure there's a strong rule of law in there as well which depending on your preference you might like or you might not like so i really recommend estonia lithuania and labia they're just sort of right next to russia

[00:53:54] Victor: So just pick the right time to go, though.

[00:53:56] Hasan: Okay.

[00:53:57] Hasan: I mean, probably not doing like peak winter.

[00:53:59] Victor: Well, I was more speaking to like the conflict over there.

[00:54:02] Victor: Okay.

[00:54:03] Victor: I guess it's all going to be.

[00:54:04] Victor: But, you know, the world, it's a crazy place.

[00:54:06] Victor: You still have to live your life.

[00:54:07] Victor: Yeah, for sure.

[00:54:07] Victor: Okay.

[00:54:08] Victor: To wrap up, I guess, Hasan, you seem like somebody who's had an awakening.

[00:54:12] Victor: What?

[00:54:13] Victor: Would you say to somebody who's, you know, maybe in the process of going through that awakening or just what's advice you have somebody maybe at a BPO company or just somebody who is very used to a traditional way of thinking to help them kind of go through this change?

[00:54:28] Hasan: want to give advice because again like to each their own like you just live your life the way you want to but if i could like maybe pass on like what worked for me i guess don't be afraid to take that next step like if you feel like you're not happy where you are then there's like a reason for that and you might need to just like take some time off for yourself like just self-reflect and think what are your priorities in life hopefully self-reflect

[00:54:50] Hasan: again you just need to set your priorities right like okay what really matters to me what are my actual goals i just forget about all the noise that's happening and forget about like the family that's on your side like work just forget about it all and just think okay between me and myself what's gonna make me happy tomorrow what's something that i can do tomorrow is gonna make me happy because again money comes and goes right and i know that this doesn't really probably sound like a good advice to give like to to people who are struggling

[00:55:15] Hasan: But I've seen people who are just happy with nothing.

[00:55:18] Hasan: And I've seen people who have millions who are miserable.

[00:55:19] Hasan: So it really depends on what really matters to you.

[00:55:23] Hasan: But what's important to you is something that's something that you're giving value.

[00:55:27] Hasan: And that's not something that anyone can buy off you.

[00:55:29] Hasan: I think if I said...

[00:55:31] Hasan: My main priority in life is my family.

[00:55:32] Hasan: Even if I had nothing in my bank account, as long as I had my family, I'm still going to be happy because that's what I put my value into.

[00:55:38] Hasan: Like, those are the people who are valuable to me.

[00:55:41] Hasan: So different people have different values in life and like what's important to them.

[00:55:46] Hasan: So think about what's important to you first and then think to yourself like, okay, can I pursue this?

[00:55:50] Hasan: And I should be pursuing it.

[00:55:52] Hasan: Like, why am I wasting my time?

[00:55:53] Hasan: At the end of the day, we're all going to die at some point, right?

[00:55:55] Hasan: I could die 10 years from now.

[00:55:56] Hasan: I say that like every week.

[00:55:57] Hasan: I mean, yeah, based on the things that you might be doing, yeah, you could die at any given time.

[00:56:02] Hasan: I could have died on the way here while I was really late, but instead I made it despite being late.

[00:56:06] Hasan: That's too bad.

[00:56:06] Hasan: Yeah, too bad.

[00:56:07] Hasan: Maybe another day.

[00:56:08] Hasan: But yeah, it's just like the things that like, okay, what are the things that I can do for now?

[00:56:13] Hasan: And just put your heart into it.

[00:56:15] Hasan: I love that message.

[00:56:16] Hasan: Roy Hassan, thank you for coming on.

[00:56:18] Hasan: Thank you for having me.