Meet Charles.

[00:00:00] Victor: today i'm joined by charles charles is a software developer originally from general central city and now he lives in manila he works for a solar client on the east coast of america and today we're going to talk about ai automations as well as his journey in the outsourcing virtual assistant space welcome charles

[00:00:20] Charles: Hello, hello, hello.

[00:00:21] Charles: Thank you for having me here.

[00:00:22] Victor: Okay, great.

[00:00:23] Victor: So I know it's your first time doing this.

[00:00:25] Victor: So let's just dive straight into something you're very familiar with.

[00:00:28] Victor: Can you just maybe quickly introduce yourself a little bit for the audience?

[00:00:33] Victor: And then let's get into your work.

[00:00:35] Charles: I'm Charles Baer.

[00:00:37] Charles: I'm a Filipino-American living in the Philippines, so mostly in charge with the CRM and automation systems on their workflows and what softwares they use in their day-to-day activities in the office.

[00:00:54] Charles: And I also do IT support if they have issues.

[00:00:59] Charles: So I'm mostly all around, but mainly focus on the systems that they use on automations just to lessen their human interactions with the systems.

[00:01:12] Victor: How long have you been at this client?

[00:01:15] Charles: I've been staying here for two years.

[00:01:18] Charles: I just joined Trendly last 24.

[00:01:23] Victor: So you've been helping this client for two years.

[00:01:25] Victor: Let's get into the CRM portion, which for anyone who don't understand, I believe it stands for Customer Relationship Management Platform.

[00:01:34] Victor: Yes.

[00:01:35] Victor: So in most companies, you have to get revenue.

[00:01:38] Victor: You have to get sales, which means you need customers, prospects to come in.

[00:01:43] Victor: And you have to track where these customers are.

[00:01:45] Victor: So they go into a system called a CRM.

[00:01:47] Victor: Think of it like a big directory.

[00:01:49] Victor: And it's important because a CRM can kind of

[00:01:51] Victor: track the last conversation you had with the client you know whether it's by email or phone call so that a sales rep or an account manager can follow up with that prospect until you say close the deal basically take their money and then find ways to service them going forward so can you just get into how this automation works for the crm like maybe start from the top of the funnel are they running ads what are they doing to get customers in

[00:02:18] Charles: The main goal is to capture the customer that needs their services.

[00:02:23] Charles: So we have a lot of avenues where to search, where to get the leads.

[00:02:30] Charles: So that's the first step in the funnel.

[00:02:33] Charles: So we get the leads, you capture the lead, then you convert the lead to a customer that you have, then convert that to a deal, which creates revenue for the company.

[00:02:44] Charles: so on the leads part we have ads direct to website that's like seo what organic they just find the website other than seo there's also automation that that grabs information from your website that pushes it straight to the crm so that's what i mostly manage in that come in in this company

[00:03:08] Charles: So once the lead comes in, the CRM that we use detects the user, gives primary information.

[00:03:16] Charles: Is this like a form that they fill out?

[00:03:18] Charles: Yes, yes.

[00:03:18] Charles: So I created the form that needs to be filled in.

[00:03:23] Charles: And some are automatic, like from the data that they use.

[00:03:27] Charles: Once it's in the system...

[00:03:30] Charles: it is added as a lead so then that's the time that you confirm if the details in the lead is correct if that's a viable lead then you convert it to a customer once it's contacted so that's where mostly how the crm works in um gaining clients or customers for that company

[00:03:54] Charles: next step inside the CRM there's also tasks and deals that that is needed for the company to run like tasks on how to process their like for example my company is solar mainly on solar so all steps in solar management or solar maintaining is in there so there's also inside that part of tasks

[00:04:24] Charles: There's also layers and layers of processes that could do the business for you.

[00:04:32] Charles: So all that you need is a user that would input the proper details of your solar system, the information that it would be scheduled and processed, and all of that matters.

[00:04:48] Victor: Just going back up to the top again, you're saying sometimes people see ads.

[00:04:52] Victor: So I'm assuming this company you're working for, they're running, is it meta ads, Google ads, both?

[00:04:58] Victor: Yes, both.

[00:04:59] Victor: Okay.

[00:05:00] Victor: And then sometimes there's organic traffic to the website and you guys have a separate landing page.

[00:05:06] Victor: You made this landing page where they had another, you made the landing page.

[00:05:09] Victor: Yes.

[00:05:10] Victor: How did you make this landing page?

[00:05:11] Charles: Mostly it's within the CRM use.

[00:05:14] Charles: So it's a feature within the CRM.

[00:05:17] Charles: What's a CRM?

[00:05:19] Victor: Zoho.

[00:05:19] Victor: Okay, so Zoho provides you a template for the planning pages of WordPress.

[00:05:23] Charles: Zoho is a big connection of apps that has integrations within all Zoho apps that could work with gaining the leads.

[00:05:35] Charles: It's called SalesIQ.

[00:05:39] Charles: It's Zoho's app where it detects the needs that you need to convert for the CRM.

[00:05:47] Charles: mostly i'm working with the connection or the integrations with the apps so that's the that's how zoho makes it more easier to use so you won't need to create everything from scratch okay i've heard of zoho before we've tried it but it looks so complicated um zoho before was overwhelming actually it was quite overwhelming but through the years they made it much easier to use actually i think i could say this because

[00:06:17] Charles: I'm used to using it or I understand how their machines work or how their machine thinks.

[00:06:25] Charles: So in connecting apps, it would be much easier for me to understand their flow of connection.

[00:06:33] Charles: So I think that's why I could say it's much easier to use.

[00:06:37] Charles: But even though we use Zoho,

[00:06:40] Charles: sometimes Google is more effective.

[00:06:44] Charles: So it's... Google for the forms or for... No, Google for the gaining the leads.

[00:06:52] Charles: Oh, Google ads.

[00:06:53] Charles: Yeah, Google ads.

[00:06:54] Victor: So then that'll be direct to the website.

[00:06:57] Charles: Mostly the numbers I don't have, those details.

[00:07:01] Victor: Because you don't manage the ads.

[00:07:03] Victor: Someone else manages the ads.

[00:07:04] Victor: Okay, so someone's on the site, they fill out a form, and then it goes...

[00:07:09] Charles: is that are you using like a zapier or a zap or is it built into zoho it's built into zoho so it's so that's where the integration works with zoho so it's more flexible with integrating with other applications so i think that's where the ai part goes in so zoho uses ai too

[00:07:31] Charles: easily connect with these apps they use the concept of zapier to connect the apis with the details that they need so that's where the zoho mostly is much utilized in that this kind of business actually can you explain just one aspect where this ai hulks because i say this because we've run meta ads before

[00:07:58] Victor: And as far as I know, we have like a WordPress landing page that we've coded, vibe coded with, you know, Vercel workload code and we converted it to WordPress.

[00:08:08] Victor: And then we have a, you're going to see how technically deficient I am now.

[00:08:13] Victor: We have a, we have a pixel.

[00:08:16] Victor: on the page.

[00:08:16] Victor: And then we have Calendly.

[00:08:19] Victor: But so far, none of this has AI.

[00:08:22] Victor: And so the lead also goes into our CRM.

[00:08:25] Victor: We use Pipedrive.

[00:08:26] Victor: It's a very basic CRM.

[00:08:27] Victor: So how does AI fit into...

[00:08:31] Victor: this first part of the step that you've described.

[00:08:33] Charles: This is where the classic definition of AI, this is where the bots are being used.

[00:08:41] Victor: The agents?

[00:08:42] Charles: Yes.

[00:08:42] Charles: This is much different than agents.

[00:08:45] Charles: The bot scans your code for the scripts, which you were saying with the pixels and other details.

[00:08:53] Charles: that matches it to the integration with Zoho which creates easily it gets the IP address some clicks that the user did or the customer did to go to that website then it captures that and stirs it with Zoho so it has forms

[00:09:14] Charles: So you could capture the duration and how long did it take them to get to your website?

[00:09:21] Charles: How long did it take them to read your content in your website before they clicked on if they want to contact you?

[00:09:30] Charles: So mostly it's more internal on the connection part.

[00:09:36] Victor: Okay.

[00:09:37] Victor: So now once the leads are in the CRM, Zoho, what happens after that?

[00:09:41] Victor: What does AI, what do your automations do?

[00:09:44] Victor: Is it supporting the follow-ups?

[00:09:45] Victor: Is that automated?

[00:09:47] Victor: What does it do?

[00:09:48] Charles: You have choices to use.

[00:09:50] Charles: So this is where workflows happen.

[00:09:53] Charles: So you have Zoho provides you with the basic feature on you could capture this information.

[00:10:01] Charles: and you can store this information but how to use the information that's where you go in and create the workflows that on each step and conditions so there's a trigger there's conditions and there's actions so if you need a for example the company needs

[00:10:21] Charles: a location-based client, like for example, only in New Jersey or only in Canada customers.

[00:10:30] Charles: So you can sort them out through a workflow that only sends follow-ups with these types of customers or leads.

[00:10:42] Charles: So mostly that's how it works through these AI connections.

[00:10:48] Victor: So, so far, I feel like all these are pretty simple automations that Zoho offers.

[00:10:52] Victor: So what are you doing?

[00:10:54] Victor: Are you guys playing with anything on the, you know, cloud code, cloud co-working side?

[00:10:59] Charles: Zoho has an internal programming language.

[00:11:03] Charles: It's called Deluge.

[00:11:05] Victor: Deluge.

[00:11:05] Charles: Yes.

[00:11:06] Charles: Okay.

[00:11:06] Charles: So it's the main syntax of Deluge is...

[00:11:10] Charles: a JavaScript, so it's Java-based.

[00:11:13] Charles: So I think Vercell is also a JavaScript, but Zoho created its own language that it reads.

[00:11:21] Charles: So using Deluge, you could practically ask Zoho what you want for what form you need, what outputs you need.

[00:11:35] Victor: So if you go back five years ago, before we had AI, we had some automations and we had Zapier or Zapier, but before AI, how many people would be required to be at this company delivering the same outcome?

[00:11:51] Charles: You know what I mean?

[00:11:51] Victor: Like how many people has this technology replaced for just the client you're working?

[00:11:56] Charles: It would replace at least five employees.

[00:11:59] Charles: Wow.

[00:12:00] Charles: For this, these action flows alone.

[00:12:04] Victor: So you would need five people five years ago to achieve the same outcome of tagging the customers that come in, following up with them, filtering them.

[00:12:12] Charles: With my experience with my past company.

[00:12:14] Charles: So that's how much people is required for that.

[00:12:18] Charles: But for now, you could do it with one employee, actually.

[00:12:21] Charles: You could do everything.

[00:12:23] Charles: Okay.

[00:12:23] Charles: So what about going forward five years?

[00:12:26] Charles: It's hard.

[00:12:27] Charles: Actually, one fear that some people have is being replaced.

[00:12:34] Charles: Then you be replaced with a non-living thing or something that doesn't breathe.

[00:12:42] Victor: Do you think we're close to that reality now?

[00:12:44] Victor: Do you think we still...

[00:12:46] Charles: need human in the loop and if we need human in the loop for how much longer mostly the ai technically it's how you how you introduce ai in your life actually for me this is what that i experienced if you treat it as a an assistant

[00:13:06] Charles: It would just make your life more easier.

[00:13:08] Charles: But if you treat it as yourself or make it like you're trying to replace yourself, like just so I won't do this anymore.

[00:13:18] Charles: That would be much harder because AI only listens to what you feed it, like from the prompts, from the code.

[00:13:27] Charles: So who would do those codes?

[00:13:30] Charles: So it would be you.

[00:13:31] Charles: So if you make the AI be your assistant,

[00:13:36] Victor: basically someone still needs to give the prompts.

[00:13:38] Victor: Yes, yes.

[00:13:39] Victor: But what about in the case, you know, I use, I have a pro subscription of Claude and we have a team subscription and my use of AI is very rudimentary because I use the chat.

[00:13:50] Victor: oh yeah so i had to repeat myself every time and yes it has some memory of the context of okay this is victor he's asked me you know for this before i know something about his family blah blah blah his health conditions and so forth but there's also i've i've heard this like planning mode

[00:14:08] Victor: right?

[00:14:08] Victor: There's like where you can build repositories of instructions.

[00:14:13] Victor: You know, for example, now I have much smarter people than me on the team.

[00:14:18] Victor: They put our entire branding kit into like a local computer with folders and things like that.

[00:14:25] Victor: So now if we say, hey, we need a pitch deck, a presentation, business cards, it just delivers something very quick.

[00:14:32] Charles: One big breakthrough of AI now is that it can read documents.

[00:14:40] Charles: So what you feed in, the files.

[00:14:43] Charles: Before, it can't read.

[00:14:44] Charles: It's like what you give is what you get.

[00:14:47] Charles: So what you feed it, it's what it replies to you.

[00:14:50] Charles: But now it could read your own works.

[00:14:52] Charles: It could read inside documents and other stuff.

[00:14:56] Charles: which makes it technically more easier to use like you just feed it like with the agents you feed the information of your company like it has a its own database of information stored within it so it's like you're using your personal google

[00:15:14] Charles: and like sometimes you ask google how to so now you can easily search within your company on how to do stuff around with the scope of it being inside your company

[00:15:30] Victor: Okay, so I have a question.

[00:15:31] Victor: So just changing gears a little bit.

[00:15:32] Victor: For what would you say to companies out there, including someone like myself?

[00:15:37] Victor: So for example, right now, I'm trying to find more people like you, right?

[00:15:43] Victor: So software developer on paper, but somebody who's been tinkering and playing with AI as an enthusiast.

[00:15:51] Victor: Because not all software developers do that.

[00:15:53] Victor: I've learned not a lot of people here even subscribe to like a Cloud Pro account.

[00:15:58] Victor: maybe because it's cost prohibitive.

[00:16:00] Victor: So what should I be looking for, whether it's soft qualities or hard skills, when I'm meeting someone to determine if they are that math scientist that I'm looking for?

[00:16:11] Charles: Mostly it's what are you actually looking for.

[00:16:14] Charles: So it's either someone who's good in prompts or someone who understands how the machine learns.

[00:16:24] Victor: How do I assess if they're good in prompts or they understand how the machine learns?

[00:16:28] Charles: One thing I learned through the years of me being an IT professional is if you know how to create a software, you know how the machine works.

[00:16:41] Charles: So if you know how the machine works or how it reads code, you would know how it creates the answers that are comfortable with what you use, like what systems you use.

[00:16:58] Charles: So if, like for example, I feed it JavaScript problems, it should output or give me JavaScript solutions too.

[00:17:09] Charles: So that's the quality on understanding if it understands you, if it really understands you.

[00:17:15] Charles: Because one confusion with prompting or with using AI is...

[00:17:20] Charles: you ask the AI a question on a particular platform or software, and it doesn't know actually what the software uses.

[00:17:31] Charles: For example, like on Zoho, it uses Deluge.

[00:17:35] Charles: but the output would be JavaScript.

[00:17:37] Charles: So it doesn't match the syntax, the coding flow of each software that uses it.

[00:17:48] Charles: So that's where you feed the AI.

[00:17:51] Charles: So that's where it learns that, oh, this is deluge, not JavaScript.

[00:17:56] Charles: It's a totally different book if you start to match the things up.

[00:18:02] Charles: Like for example, if HTML,

[00:18:05] Charles: you ask it to create a WordPress template for this.

[00:18:10] Charles: So it gives you HTML solutions.

[00:18:14] Charles: So you could copy and paste that to your WordPress and it would still run.

[00:18:18] Charles: On WordPress, you still need the PHP side on how it interacts with the database of WordPress to give the pictures or what you want to display on your website.

[00:18:31] Charles: So that's where the machine is being used.

[00:18:35] Charles: So it's what you feed to the AI.

[00:18:37] Victor: My takeaway is that when I'm looking for someone with this skill set, they need to be able to kind of back out what they're looking for.

[00:18:47] Charles: If they understand the language being used on one particular...

[00:18:54] Charles: Like, you know, like us IT professionals, we have baseline coding languages that we know, that we read, or me, that's how I code.

[00:19:03] Charles: So I could read it like I'm the computer.

[00:19:06] Charles: So I'm internalizing that example.

[00:19:09] Charles: I'm the computer.

[00:19:10] Charles: Do I know how this is run or how this is, how this works or how this would display?

[00:19:17] Charles: How would this function be used?

[00:19:20] Charles: So if I know how that happens or how that's created, AI would much be easier.

[00:19:26] Charles: If you look things in a third-person view, even if you don't know how to use AI, it would be much easier to learn if you know how the computer works.

[00:19:40] Victor: I see.

[00:19:40] Charles: It's like how a psychologist reads the mind of the patient or if that happens.

[00:19:46] Charles: I mean, it's like you need to understand how the computer works or how the system works for you to know that he can use AI because actually AI is still learning.

[00:19:59] Charles: I mean, it's still fresh.

[00:20:01] Charles: So it's still adaptive or it's still growing.

[00:20:05] Charles: One key point that I think some employers would

[00:20:10] Charles: think their main use is ai i think no i think they could focus much more on the capacity of the va or the for or us what's our capacity without the ai first before um introducing if they you're looking for the capability of the person yeah before adding on this superpower yes yes

[00:20:32] Charles: so at least you know the baseline if because now you could fake like there's also always a word fake it till you make it they could abuse actually ai it's not their original work it's the ai's work so it's like how they would think solving the problem but actually the ai solved the problem for them

[00:20:57] Victor: So in your case, maybe if I'm looking for someone to do automations, this person should understand the sales funnel without the AI.

[00:21:06] Victor: They should understand the efficiencies that AI would save them, provide them in a perfect scenario.

[00:21:13] Victor: They would understand the business objectives.

[00:21:16] Victor: And then they should understand the technical side of it, the limitations.

[00:21:20] Victor: So all of this can get them to describe in an interview where they don't have much support.

[00:21:26] Victor: And then that sets you up for maybe they can do it, right?

[00:21:28] Victor: So that's their capability.

[00:21:30] Charles: Mostly on trust, if the contact is trustworthy with what they say, what they do.

[00:21:37] Charles: So it would be an easy hire for them, actually.

[00:21:41] Victor: Last question on this topic, and I want to shift gears completely.

[00:21:45] Victor: Just out of all the software engineers in the Philippines,

[00:21:50] Victor: I just want you to take an anecdote here.

[00:21:52] Victor: What percentage of IT professionals who are software engineers do you think right now are operating at the bleeding edge of AI, playing with it, tinkering with it, staying at the bleeding edge?

[00:22:06] Victor: Just what percentage?

[00:22:07] Charles: My information is not accurate here, so I'm also not that good.

[00:22:13] Charles: I mean, baseline.

[00:22:15] Charles: I think mostly on now, if I base it

[00:22:21] Charles: In 2006, it would be roughly 80%.

[00:22:27] Victor: 80% are playing with it?

[00:22:28] Victor: Yeah, I think so.

[00:22:29] Charles: Oh, wow, that's really high.

[00:22:30] Charles: Because we always want to make our lives easier.

[00:22:34] Charles: So it's more, but there's also a good side and a bad side.

[00:22:40] Charles: Like for AI, we could just dream about creating these applications.

[00:22:46] Victor: Then now it's with a stop the finger, you could create those applications.

[00:22:50] Charles: It removes the journey of learning how to create it step by step.

[00:22:56] Charles: But now you could wait five minutes, then it would create the, like for example, websites.

[00:23:03] Charles: I think five years ago, that was a trend, creating websites.

[00:23:08] Victor: It's an entire industry.

[00:23:09] Charles: Yeah.

[00:23:10] Charles: Creating WordPress templates, WordPress stuff.

[00:23:14] Charles: creating your own CRMs, like that.

[00:23:17] Charles: Years ago, it was a journey how to update your versions of own softwares.

[00:23:24] Charles: You can just prompt it to create a whole system.

[00:23:30] Charles: with the snap of the finger or if I would just wait five minutes, 30 minutes, then you could run it with its own server.

[00:23:36] Charles: It would be public and all.

[00:23:39] Charles: This is just the downside of learning for me.

[00:23:43] Charles: So I think AI just cut the learning experience short.

[00:23:48] Charles: But the trade-off would be...

[00:23:51] Charles: you have your system you could sell it you could profit enough of it so it would be profiting much easier but on the other side your learning experience would be cut short so it would be it's like you're jumping through experiences

[00:24:10] Charles: You didn't learn how to make a mistake on this part.

[00:24:14] Charles: So I think on my side, because me growing up, that was my primary teacher.

[00:24:21] Charles: Failure was actually my primary teachers.

[00:24:24] Charles: So when I say teachers, because I failed a lot, then I fail, stand up back again, then just keep going.

[00:24:32] Charles: Then that's where I learned how to be resilient, be more...

[00:24:37] Charles: effective, be more up-going.

[00:24:40] Charles: So that's where you learn stuff.

[00:24:42] Charles: But with AI, it just cuts the learning experience short.

[00:24:46] Victor: Yeah, I think part of it is the knowledge is becoming a commodity now because you used to be prized in society or the economy if you know a lot of stuff.

[00:24:57] Victor: thing is now anybody can know a lot of stuff right very quickly okay charlotte i want to shift gears because before this interview started today my producer she told me that you have an interesting story coming into the outsourcing space so maybe you can just share that and we get into it about how you started out let's call it in the virtual assistant space and some of the the bad things you've experienced

[00:25:24] Charles: Okay, moving back.

[00:25:25] Charles: Me growing up, I'm used to the traditional work.

[00:25:28] Charles: So here in the Philippines, 9 to 6.

[00:25:32] Charles: And also Monday to Saturday.

[00:25:35] Charles: So you work Monday to Saturday.

[00:25:37] Charles: Your rest is Sunday.

[00:25:38] Charles: So I'm used to that.

[00:25:40] Charles: that work experience with the pandemic it made lives more challenging so i had to stop actually i thought finding a job was easier but because of um the virtual it was the spark of virtual assistants

[00:26:01] Charles: on the time that i stopped working my nine to six so when i changed when i transitioned i was it was a whole year of finding new work so i was being active on linkedin sending 20 applications per day each then what happened was

[00:26:23] Charles: I was offered a job, project-based job.

[00:26:29] Victor: What's a company based?

[00:26:30] Charles: In the U.S.

[00:26:32] Charles: I think as far as I could remember, it was a company in, I'm not sure if it's California or a different location.

[00:26:43] Charles: But it was selling light parts.

[00:26:46] Charles: Light?

[00:26:46] Victor: Yeah.

[00:26:47] Charles: Lighting?

[00:26:49] Charles: Like for example, LED lights, LED extensions, LED stuff.

[00:26:55] Charles: The work was digital marketing.

[00:26:57] Charles: So my past job, I was a IT administrator and also a digital marketing head.

[00:27:07] Charles: So I had experience with all those fields.

[00:27:11] Charles: So I was so into working that time because it was too long for me to have no work.

[00:27:21] Victor: Because of the pandemic?

[00:27:22] Charles: Yes, because of that.

[00:27:23] Charles: So it was a year of no work.

[00:27:25] Charles: Then I got excited.

[00:27:27] Charles: I did my best.

[00:27:28] Charles: The project was for the estimated time of the project to be finished was a month.

[00:27:34] Charles: I finished it within a week.

[00:27:37] Charles: I think a week and a half.

[00:27:40] Charles: Then I received the payment.

[00:27:42] Charles: It was supposed to be two times, so I just received it once.

[00:27:47] Charles: Then after I received my payment, a lot of things happened.

[00:27:53] Charles: There was...

[00:27:56] Charles: a couple of excuses.

[00:27:57] Victor: Oh, so they did not pay you the second part of the payment.

[00:28:00] Victor: So it was an upfront payment or deposit, first part, and then on completion, they pay you the second one.

[00:28:06] Charles: Okay.

[00:28:06] Charles: So they completely forgot about it.

[00:28:09] Charles: They were reasoning that the employee assigned for the project resigned.

[00:28:13] Charles: So the...

[00:28:15] Charles: So there was a ton of excuses, which actually pissed me off.

[00:28:20] Charles: So it made me more skeptic, actually.

[00:28:24] Charles: So there was a time that I didn't trust being a VA.

[00:28:29] Charles: So it was harder to trust.

[00:28:31] Victor: Was that your only experience or did you have another experience?

[00:28:34] Charles: So far, that was the most extreme.

[00:28:37] Charles: So I had data entries with clients, but it was just part-time based.

[00:28:42] Charles: So those are some experiences I had.

[00:28:46] Charles: With this particular company, it was, aside from dreadful, it was...

[00:28:53] Charles: it was a taxing project so it was i needed to focus i needed a hundred percent of my my time creating those um it was a mostly working with seos and advertising for that company so it was taxing it was a lot of work then one day i followed up with them what what's happening

[00:29:24] Charles: That's when I realized that I was cut from Slack.

[00:29:29] Charles: They were using Slack on that time.

[00:29:31] Charles: So they blocked me, everything.

[00:29:33] Charles: They removed me from Slack.

[00:29:34] Charles: They removed my access, everything.

[00:29:36] Charles: So I was in dark waters for so long.

[00:29:42] Charles: I didn't know what to do.

[00:29:44] Charles: Because I didn't get paid.

[00:29:45] Charles: So I don't know how.

[00:29:46] Charles: Here living in the Philippines, you need money for you to survive here.

[00:29:51] Charles: So it's quite hard.

[00:29:54] Victor: And this doesn't happen locally, right?

[00:29:55] Victor: Like if you work for a company here, a tech company, an outsourcing company, a BPO, the law is very strict.

[00:30:03] Victor: Yeah, you can go to Delhi.

[00:30:05] Charles: You have avenues here if you see your employer face-to-face.

[00:30:10] Charles: So you have other avenues to get compensated even if what happens.

[00:30:18] Charles: It's like you were not there to begin with.

[00:30:22] Charles: So that's the hardest part for me.

[00:30:24] Victor: It's the Wild West.

[00:30:27] Victor: And there's very low trust in this space.

[00:30:30] Victor: When I came into outsourcing, I'll speak from the client's perspective too.

[00:30:36] Victor: I had...

[00:30:37] Victor: a lot of people that are hired then they just ghost me you know they disappear after a week because i gave them some feedback or the work became too difficult but then i would understand this is other part of it too where people also don't get paid so on your side like people don't get paid

[00:30:56] Victor: And there's nothing they can do about it.

[00:30:58] Charles: Yeah.

[00:30:59] Victor: Because your government here can't go to California.

[00:31:02] Victor: But then on that side, you know, on Upwork, there's also a lot of, I don't know, did you find this job on Upwork?

[00:31:08] Victor: I posted that.

[00:31:11] Victor: It's hard to get.

[00:31:13] Victor: Because on Upwork, for example, if I hire someone, sometimes I'll find out that that person...

[00:31:18] Victor: outsource the work to someone else.

[00:31:20] Victor: And sometimes that person outsourced the work to someone else.

[00:31:23] Victor: So it's a very low trust space.

[00:31:25] Victor: So, okay, after that incident, you said you did some data entry work?

[00:31:29] Charles: Yes.

[00:31:30] Charles: Oh, no.

[00:31:31] Charles: I did data entry before this.

[00:31:33] Charles: So after I got scammed, sorry, I call it scam.

[00:31:35] Charles: You did get scammed.

[00:31:36] Victor: Yes, correct.

[00:31:37] Charles: So after I got scammed, I cut finding VA works.

[00:31:42] Charles: So I just... You stopped.

[00:31:44] Charles: Yeah, I stopped finding...

[00:31:47] Charles: I just took a break for, I think, two months or three.

[00:31:50] Charles: So it really affected you?

[00:31:52] Victor: Very much.

[00:31:53] Victor: You just felt cheated, right?

[00:31:54] Victor: You felt like it's deeply unfair.

[00:31:57] Charles: Oh, yeah.

[00:31:58] Charles: You took the words right out of my mouth.

[00:32:00] Charles: On that time, I think it was more harsh with my experience because you don't know where to pay your bills.

[00:32:07] Victor: You were expecting the money, yeah.

[00:32:10] Victor: You did the work, you had to pay for your internet, your electric bills.

[00:32:15] Charles: So you use those utilities for the job.

[00:32:20] Charles: So it's how you could pay it back.

[00:32:23] Charles: So there's times that I would just leave.

[00:32:26] Charles: If I get cut off with my electric bill, I just leave it at that.

[00:32:31] Charles: I survived even weeks without power on my place.

[00:32:36] Charles: There was a time in my experience that happened.

[00:32:40] Charles: So it affected me deeply, actually.

[00:32:44] Charles: I was even contemplating to just move back to my province in Jensen.

[00:32:50] Victor: This was the one-month project, right?

[00:32:53] Victor: Yeah.

[00:32:54] Victor: Why do you think, from your perspective, this company in the States didn't pay you?

[00:33:01] Victor: And you just, you don't have to protect them.

[00:33:02] Victor: I'm just literally curious.

[00:33:04] Victor: And I'll share with you what I've seen as well.

[00:33:07] Victor: Do you think it was my greed?

[00:33:11] Victor: Or do you think they just did it because they can?

[00:33:13] Charles: I think, yeah, they did it because they could do it, actually.

[00:33:17] Charles: It was more convenient for them to have it be done by someone else than to pay something.

[00:33:25] Charles: Can I ask how much they owed you?

[00:33:27] Charles: In pesos, they still owe me 20k, 20,000.

[00:33:33] Victor: so i mean in with all due respect for anyone listening in the west that's about 300 us dollars i think so yeah so they went to great lengths to not pay you 300 us dollars yes yes yeah i hate that

[00:33:49] Charles: yeah that was so hard um the hardest thing about that was on that job they promised you you could work even if you're on vacation so i so on that time one of my relatives they um was inviting me to go to cebu

[00:34:08] Charles: to visit her because she was staying in New York.

[00:34:12] Charles: So I said, yes, yes, Auntie, I'll be in Cebu.

[00:34:17] Charles: So while I was in Cebu, that's where they cut me off.

[00:34:22] Charles: So that was so hurtful.

[00:34:25] Charles: So aside from being scammed, I felt betrayed by the recruiter from... Oh, this was through an agency as well?

[00:34:35] Victor: Yes.

[00:34:36] Victor: So you found the job through a middle party.

[00:34:38] Charles: It was in Lincoln.

[00:34:40] Charles: It was totally legit.

[00:34:41] Charles: So yeah, so it was from Lincoln.

[00:34:44] Charles: So I never expected, that's, I think that's one word I would describe.

[00:34:51] Charles: I never expect that to happen.

[00:34:53] Charles: I was, I think, I'm not sure if I also had a fault there.

[00:34:59] Charles: I was too trustworthy with how I was hired.

[00:35:04] Charles: Then after,

[00:35:07] Charles: They would pin you down and, okay, so after you release me, you're not going to ping me.

[00:35:13] Charles: So it's like that.

[00:35:14] Victor: You know, I think it's so bad when this stuff happens.

[00:35:16] Victor: So we've had a couple of clients.

[00:35:19] Victor: One guy, I won't even, I'm not even afraid to describe him.

[00:35:23] Victor: He's apparently a big shot lawyer in Toronto.

[00:35:28] Victor: You know, on the surface, multiple practices.

[00:35:31] Victor: He owns a couple of fitness franchises and he hired a legal assistant through us.

[00:35:38] Victor: And he just didn't pay his invoice for three months.

[00:35:42] Victor: Of course, we take that invoice.

[00:35:44] Victor: We pay the staff.

[00:35:46] Victor: And part of it is our fee, right?

[00:35:48] Victor: We need to eat too.

[00:35:50] Victor: Part of it is the MaxiCare healthcare.

[00:35:53] Victor: But while we wait for his invoice, we, of course, pay her.

[00:35:59] Victor: because she can't wait because bills can't meet actually yeah bills can't wait here and you know that's a whole separate discussion so we just pay her but in my mind you know there was a couple of alarms my finance team would raise like hey so and so still didn't pay in this month too

[00:36:14] Victor: And I'm thinking, no, it's fine.

[00:36:16] Victor: It's just busy.

[00:36:16] Victor: You know, warriors in Canada are very busy, very busy.

[00:36:20] Victor: And, you know, this is like, objectively speaking, I mean, that's why companies outsource, right?

[00:36:27] Victor: You know, it's a little bit crass to say, but it's because they want to save some money and achieve the outcome.

[00:36:33] Victor: So I assume that there's already an understanding.

[00:36:37] Victor: But somehow you just never pay.

[00:36:39] Victor: And then we had to escalate the situation.

[00:36:44] Victor: And sometimes companies go bankrupt.

[00:36:46] Victor: So that is the case with another client that experienced this.

[00:36:51] Victor: And they just paid us what they could.

[00:36:53] Victor: And we got a formal letter from the creditor saying like, hey, we're in receivership, which basically means like we're formally bankrupt, like from the lawyer.

[00:37:03] Victor: and it's okay these things happen right it's a business i think for the higher pay that vas generally receive this is an incumbent risk like you get paid higher per hour than like a local company would give you and take this risk but what i didn't understand this guy was like he kept asking her to do stuff so for the three months he kept asking her to work okay but he never had the intention to pay and i just think that's a scumbag of the earth yeah yeah yeah right there

[00:37:30] Victor: Okay, so you've since recovered from it, and obviously we don't need a plug here at Trendly, but what would your advice be to aspiring VAs or people who are in the tech industry now, maybe they're working for a local big company doing the very structured work?

[00:37:47] Victor: They're protected under employment law, but maybe they're not getting paid that much.

[00:37:52] Victor: They get their 13th month pay.

[00:37:54] Victor: They get their SSS contribution, blah, blah, blah.

[00:37:57] Victor: But they're like, you know what?

[00:37:59] Victor: Because of lifestyle reasons, because of traffic, I want to be home and I want to try this.

[00:38:04] Victor: What would your advice be for them?

[00:38:07] Victor: What should they look out for?

[00:38:08] Charles: Just keep your windows open.

[00:38:10] Charles: So I won't say doors because...

[00:38:13] Victor: So you can jump?

[00:38:14] Victor: Yeah.

[00:38:16] Charles: For me, I was hired by Trendly through referrals.

[00:38:23] Charles: So I was really out of the picture on VA. You're done with it.

[00:38:29] Charles: Yeah, it's not good for my health.

[00:38:34] Charles: It's hard to digest in my perspective.

[00:38:38] Charles: In my experience, one trait I have is I love to help people.

[00:38:43] Charles: So I like helping around.

[00:38:45] Charles: I like doing that.

[00:38:46] Charles: So one close friend of mine just asked me, do you know how to do this?

[00:38:54] Charles: I just said, yes, and that's very easy.

[00:38:57] Charles: I do that all the time in my past company.

[00:39:02] Charles: What company is this?

[00:39:03] Charles: So I would have, you should always, my suggestion would be, you should always do a background check.

[00:39:12] Charles: Check everything.

[00:39:13] Victor: What are you checking for?

[00:39:14] Victor: Just go on Google, search as much as you can.

[00:39:16] Charles: yes is this a notable company is it legit is their employee feedback very good if their employees love their work do they enjoy doing this can they say this out loud that i'm proud to be in this company

[00:39:36] Charles: For me, the experience that my friend had with Trendly was very good.

[00:39:41] Charles: So I would trust her with that.

[00:39:44] Charles: So it's more like, I'll just give it a shot.

[00:39:46] Charles: So on the interviews I had with Trendly,

[00:39:51] Charles: i was still skeptic so i was i was more happy-go-lucky on the interviews like if i get if i get tired thank you if i don't it's no problem actually so i just didn't expect anything just to protect myself with the experience but once i got the job it was it was unforgettable for me because um one instance that i had was when i got my first pay

[00:40:21] Charles: I thought I was getting scammed.

[00:40:23] Charles: So I was skeptical.

[00:40:25] Charles: When I received my first pay, I asked directly to the one in contact with the payroll.

[00:40:34] Charles: Excuse me.

[00:40:38] Charles: Is this my pay for the whole month?

[00:40:42] Victor: Or half month.

[00:40:43] Charles: Or what?

[00:40:44] Charles: What's this?

[00:40:45] Charles: I think it's too big.

[00:40:47] Charles: Is this just for now or what?

[00:40:50] Charles: So they said, no, sir, this is you get paid biweekly.

[00:40:56] Charles: So 15, every second week.

[00:41:01] Charles: So this is normal, sir.

[00:41:04] Charles: This is your rate.

[00:41:05] Charles: So that's where I realized, really?

[00:41:09] Charles: So this is legit.

[00:41:11] Charles: So after my first pay, to be honest, I fell in love with working with it.

[00:41:18] Victor: And you know, that's such a low bar.

[00:41:19] Victor: I mean, I'm very thankful you said that.

[00:41:21] Victor: I appreciate the accolades, but we don't celebrate that in the company, right?

[00:41:27] Victor: We don't say, oh, we paid people money that they're owed.

[00:41:31] Victor: You know, good job, everybody.

[00:41:33] Victor: You know, and I think there are a lot of good companies that do the right thing out there.

[00:41:38] Victor: And I'm glad you gave this arrangement another shot because I do think it's very good work if it works for you.

[00:41:46] Victor: Right.

[00:41:46] Victor: In life, you know, I have a finance background, so it's risk and return.

[00:41:50] Victor: and i think too many times the problem is people on the client side they try to outsource them from here and they get burned once and then they say okay that's it i'm never looking at the philippines ever again already you're gonna you're gonna rule out an entire country just because you have one bad experience on upwork when you didn't have maybe you didn't have enough experience to navigate it

[00:42:14] Victor: same thing right like we've had candidates they get burned too we hear the stories someone on my team she's worked for a big agency here as well and they threaten her and all this stuff but you know i think that's maybe a broader life lesson that i like to believe in which is you have to give things time because maybe it takes time for for things to work right on my comment there i was skeptic because

[00:42:40] Charles: last time i got paid that much it was my last so by the way yeah okay so i was just making sure that you're still there two years right oh yeah oh man i had nothing else to say but it was um my current client now is so good it's yeah actually

[00:43:02] Victor: Okay, well, yeah, okay, let's leave it at that.

[00:43:03] Victor: Shout out to Anthony.

[00:43:04] Victor: Thank you for taking care of Charles.

[00:43:06] Victor: But thanks for coming on and sharing your experience.

[00:43:09] Charles: It's my honor, actually.

[00:43:11] Charles: It's an honor to talk to you, to meet you.

[00:43:14] Charles: You're one of the big bosses here in Trend League, man.

[00:43:20] Victor: Just a regular guy.

[00:43:21] Victor: We keep ourselves very simple.

[00:43:23] Victor: But, okay, thank you, Charles.

[00:43:24] Victor: Thank you very much.

[00:43:25] Victor: Thank you so much.